It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:01 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 159 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #141 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:08 am 
Judan

Posts: 6397
Liked others: 1503
Was liked: 2397
Kirby wrote:
I should at least attempt to calculate point values.


To observers:

"The endgame is fighting strength."
-- Takagawa

_________________
"Still on the right side of the grass."

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #142 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:05 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
MinjaeKim,
I am going to Korea this weekend, and will return on February 10th. I'd like to play well for this game, so please expect me to make a move after then.

Thanks,
Kirby

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #143 Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:43 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I am back, now. But I am still thinking about the next move.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #144 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:07 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
This game could be close, so I need to assess the points on the board.

I have been putting it off, since I am not good at endgame.


So here goes. Even if I'm bad at endgame, I should be able to at least give it a shot.

So, where are remaining options on the board? Answering him, is of course an answer. But there are other spots, too.

I'll start by listing some general areas that come to mind.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b X . . . . . X X O c . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X g X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . h O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O d . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . f . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . e . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess that's a good starting point. So now I need to figure out how much it's worth for both black and white to play in these areas.


Let's go alphabetically. The obvious move is to answer his last move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I don't play this, white can capture the stone. So I guess this is the alternative:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O C 3 |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I tenuki and let white play first, after this, I can either tenuki again, or I can answer.

If I answer, It's probably like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O B . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And if I tenuki again, there's a lot of aji for him to play with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black tenukis twice
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thinking of it calmly like this, I don't think that this last diagram, above, is an option. My position has fallen apart - white has the ladder, so I can't capture his cutting stone - I'm separated, and my territory is gone.

...

So I'll use a heuristic and just eliminate the option of tenuking twice. That is to say, if I tenuki, then he can capture the stone in sente. We'll have this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black tenukis once
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Given this, I can compare the point values of white's playing first in this area, and me.

If I play first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then it is my right to play the hane later, so I gain the following 4 points, locally:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O 1 |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O C . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white plays first, white gains the following 6 points locally (including 1 captured stone):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . C O C |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O C O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


From this, it would seem that a play in the area is 10 points reverse sente. Following a heuristic I heard, that means it's worth slightly more than 20 points.

But maybe this is an overestimate.

That's because, while I lose all of those points if white plays first, in this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black tenukis once
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked white stone is firmly captured, and aji is eliminated in the area.

If I respond to his atari, locally, I save those points, but he can still aim for aji on the right. I don't know how he'll exploit it, but here are some example sequences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or maybe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . 8 X 5 . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . 4 3 . 9 |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or maybe

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . 6 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure of the exact variation that will happen.

But there is a lot more aji than there is with this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So how do I compare these variations?


Since there seems to be a lot more aji with the tenuki variation, perhaps I can factor in potential territory on the side into my calculation. That is to say, if I tenuki, I will probably get about this many points on the right, which I might end up losing if I don't tenuki but end up with the right-side aji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O B . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . C |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . C C |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X C C C |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White will also get a couple of points, so let's say that it's about 10 points that I've gained by reducing the aji when I played the marked black move, above.

White could exploit that aji immediately if I do the non-tenuki option. Or, it's possible that I play on the right first to eliminate the aji. So if I play first, I'd play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O c . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's assume that this move secures the aji on the right - i.e. black will get the 10 points or so that might have otherwise been lost.

I don't really know how to handle this kind of endgame calculation.

So I guess I'll say that there is a 50/50 chance of white or black getting the 10 point play on the right, if the position is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So considering the aji, the value of black territory on the right is, perhaps 5 points here, but is the full 10 points when I tenuki once, let white capture, then defend.

Therefore, the real point value is the 4 points I counted above, if black plays first, plus -5, since black has value of 5 points of territory on the right, instead of 10.

So with black playing first, black actually gets -1, since I don't wrap up the aji on the right hand side. White had 6 points before, which makes 6-1 = 5 points gain for playing in this area.

Since it's still a double-sente move, I guess we can say that this area is around a little more than 10 points?


After writing all of this, I realized that I missed another nuance.

Namely, if I tenuki and let white capture, white is clearly alive. That means that white doesn't have to worry much about his group. If I answer, I think the clamp is bigger later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O B . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because white isn't totally alive.

On the other hand, if white captures the stone, while I eliminate aji on the right, I also eliminate aji on the top:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O B . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, the clamp seems less meaningful.


I'm kind of confusing myself at this point, and I think I'm going in circles.

I'll take a break and come back to this after thinking about what I'm confusing.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #145 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:10 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Okay, let's try continuing.

If I protect, the question I have is, 'How much does black gain from white's weakness?

Let's assume that white tenukis. What benefit does black get?


Perhaps it could go something like this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O 3 . . . . O 1 |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O 6 4 O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Locally, white can live with this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 2 3 6 7 O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O X 5 4 . . O X |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O O O O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That means, white is not in any danger of dying, unless I reduce the eyespace on the inside:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O 3 7 . . . O 1 |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O 6 4 O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But white can still get one eye locally, and can move into the center.


So even if I answer, white is not in real danger with his group. The question is, can I get extra points by pressuring it?

Either variation I select, the clamp is still available. So the difference in points is if I can get free moves in the center area.

For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O 3 . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O 6 4 O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is :b7: a free move in either case? It seems white can still tenuki, since white has access to the center, or can live inside.

So :b7: is not really sente, so the only real forcing move I can get is maybe later to take away eyespace.

Therefore, I'd estimate that there is some benefit to keeping black "not alive", but only a couple of points.


So if black has a couple of additional points by answering:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then we can say that black's score of -1 from before, playing the first move, is actually maybe something like 1. White still has 6 points local gain.

Factor in that it's reverse sente, so I'll double it and say this is worth about 12 points.


---
Conclusion: I have some weird, maybe flawed logic. But I'm going to say that the local area up here @ 'a' is worth 12 points.

Now to move on to the other areas on the board and compute them, too.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #146 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:39 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
So now we are on to area 'b' (note that I'm not saying "move 'b'", because these are for areas, not moves. Maybe I'll think of a better move in these local areas - but in this case, 'b' is probably the move, too):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I should compare this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For the second diagram, white doesn't have much of a follow-up. So I guess I can consider that the terminal position.

For the first one, white will probably not answer, so black will get at least this position as privilege:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . 1 O C X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . 2 . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it's probably good to not do the atari at the marked intersection, yet. It doesn't immediately benefit me, but it strengthens white.


Actually, scratch that.

Since answering is gote, I think I should instead just extend again if he tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It'd be nice if peeping worked instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . 3 O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But alas, I think I don't have a good response if he just answers firmly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . 2 O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I briefly looked at some weird wedge, but it seems to immediately fail:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . 2 O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So probably extending is the one to do.

If I extend, he will probably ignore, so that means I get this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually, I think it's pretty sente - I feel awkward as white trying to come up with the next move.

So probably he'd answer, and the terminal position would be here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | 2 1 O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | 3 5 . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So to avoid complicating things like for the 'a' area, let's just compare the two terminal positions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(I added black's privilege.)

Black move first gains these 4 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | C C C C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White move first gains these 6 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | C O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C O O X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | C C O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | C C . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So just 10 points. Similar to move 'a', but maybe 'a' is worth more.


Conclusion. Area 'b' is about 10 points. So 'a' > 'b' in terms of priority, I think. At least that seems correct.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #147 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:53 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Now it's time to investigate area 'c':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O c . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black plays first, it'll probably go like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O 1 . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O 4 2 O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White could, of course, tenuki along the way.


But because my head hurts, let's not think about white tenuki and just calculate the difference locally.

If white moves first... Here, I guess:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O W . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So if we add "privilege" moves after this, I guess we are comparing this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 2 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O X 1 . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O O O O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O O 4 O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So if black goes first, he gets the following 0 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O O O O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And if white goes first, white gets the following 3 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O C C . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O O 4 O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conclusion: Area 'c' is about 6 points, since it's somewhat sente for black. Maybe slightly over 6.

So so far, 'a' > 'b' > 'c', I think.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #148 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:10 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Area 'd'.

For this one, I'm not sure which move is better.

This:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O B . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


They have pros and cons. If I do the first one, I claim more corner territory, but there is still aji on the side. Furthermore, white can stay ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The second one walls off the side, but allows white to split off the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because of the aji, I'm just going to make a call. I think the second one is better because it fixes the aji on the right, and threatens to link with the corner. So I can count 50% of the value of connecting to the corner, plus the 10 points or so I estimated existed in aji before.

If black connects:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O X C C |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X C C |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I get about 8 more points by connecting to the corner compared to if white splits. Since there's 50% chance I'll get this, call it 4 points.


Conclusion: This one is about 10+4=14 points. So 'd' > 'a' > 'b' > 'c'.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #149 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:57 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Next is the 'e' area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . e . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black goes first, I hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The question now is, does white answer, or play somewhere else?

It's not clear to me, so let's say that white answers with probability 50% and doesn't answer with probability 50%.

So 50% chance of this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and 50% chance of this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So let's start with this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X W X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X W B . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X C C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is 50% chance here that black will capture the white stones for a bit more than say 8 points.

So count it as 4 points. Add the two points black gains for playing the marked move for 6 points.

Divide by two for 50% probability so that's 3 points.

Compare this to white's play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O B . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White gains half of a chance to get the stone for a bit over 1 point. Count as 0.5 because of 50% probability.

Now there's 25% chance that white ends up blocking (gaining no points for white) vs. black to keep going gaining:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . C X X . C C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . C C C C C . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That's 8 more points, times 0.25, so 8/4=2, plus the 0.5 from before = 2.5.


So in some convoluated way, I think black gets maybe 5.5 points for going first.

What if white goes first?

White should start the capturing race to get forcing moves outside, I think:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X 2 X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O 1 O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . 4 O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X 3 8 6 5 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


black probably won't answer, so white can have privilege:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X X X O C O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O O O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X O X X O O . 5 6 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 2 1 3 C C 9 7 8 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has gained 3 points locally, but has also reduced black compared to black going first.

Before, black had 17 points locally, but now, black has 12 left. That's a swing of 5 points.

So white got 5+3 = 8 points. However, white did this in sente, so it's a reverse-sente play, making it worth a bit more than 16 points.


Conclusion: This one should be worth about 5.5+16=21.5 points.

So 'e' > 'd' > 'a' > 'b' > 'c'.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #150 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:12 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Now is time for area 'f'.

This move seems solid:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . B . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But this move seems to get more points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . B . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The thing is, with the latter move, I think that white can block it off in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X 3 O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 2 . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I don't like that.

Let's count the points for the first one. If black plays first, we have this. White may ignore, so black's follow up is monkey jump, I guess... But that ends in gote.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 2 C O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 6 O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | 7 5 . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the other hand, I can later play 'x' in sente. So that's a plus.

For simplicity, I'll count this as terminal position right here.

Now if white goes first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 4 . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | 3 2 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So point value for black going first is black gains these 5 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 2 C O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 6 O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | 7 5 . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | C X . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | C C X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



whereas white gains these 5 points for going first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . B X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | B X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W W O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | C 5 . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 4 . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | 3 2 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conclusion: This area is about 10 points. So 'e' > 'd' > 'a' > 'b'/'f' (about the same) > 'c'.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #151 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:17 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Area 'g' seems slow, but I guess it gives a bit of follow-up later in the middle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O c . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X B X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black plays there first, I guess I have "privilege" to cut later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O c . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 C 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O 2 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Very vague, but I'm going to say about 5 points - difference of capturing two stones, got into the middle a little bit, but he also got a little bit more thickness.

Very hard to estimate, but this one doesn't seem that big.


Conclusion: So 'e' > 'd' > 'a' > 'b'/'f' (about the same) > 'c' > 'g'.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #152 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:25 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Finally, the last one. Sadly, I feel my desire to win this game is getting exhausted, the more I try to calculate these points.

I think my precision - not that I was precise before - is also going down.


Anyway, last one. If black plays first, I'm now thinking I like the marked move better, since it has better follow-up:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X g X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . B X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White won't answer, so I will get monkey jump:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | 4 8 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 2 O O X g X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 3 6 O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 5 O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | C X X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black has one more point in the marked area. Compared to if white goes first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | C C . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C O O X g X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | C C O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 1 O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 4 2 X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has 6 more points. So this is like 7 points or something.


Conclusion: This one is about 7 points. So something like 'e' > 'd' > 'a' > 'b'/'f' (about the same) > 'c'/'h' (have to calculate more clearly at that time) > 'g'.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #153 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:28 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I guess I'll play the highest ranking item from my convoluted math. What the hell?

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #154 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:40 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 736
Location: Littleton, CO
Liked others: 252
Was liked: 209
Rank: KGS 3k
Universal go server handle: jeromie
That was an impressive amount of writing about your choice, Kirby!

Now seems like a good time to chime in and say that I really appreciate the effort you guys put into sharing your thoughts. These games are great fun to watch, and I feel I learn a lot about how to think about the game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #155 Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:09 am 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Thanks, jeromie. That's nice of you to say.

But don't try to learn too much from my thoughts. They are often somewhat muddled! :-)

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #156 Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:31 am 
Judan

Posts: 6397
Liked others: 1503
Was liked: 2397
Kirby wrote:
Thanks, jeromie. That's nice of you to say.

But don't try to learn too much from my thoughts. They are often somewhat muddled! :-)


Goethe said that if you can think something through, you are not really thinking. :D

_________________
"Still on the right side of the grass."

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #157 Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:26 am 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Thanks, jeromie. That's nice of you to say.

But don't try to learn too much from my thoughts. They are often somewhat muddled! :-)


Goethe said that if you can think something through, you are not really thinking. :D


Goathe sounds pretty cool.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #158 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:44 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 118
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 13
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O W . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry for my extremely late response.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MinjaeKim 5.5d vs. Kirby 3d (Tygem ranks)
Post #159 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:31 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7559
Liked others: 1373
Was liked: 1160
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The next biggest area according to my (flawed?) analysis was 14 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O B . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But then white's move here is kind of sente, if I am going to make my last move worthwhile:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . X W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If that's sente, then it means white can have the monkey jump later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O , O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . 1 X O . . 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 2 5 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That's a lot of points. At least this many compared to my play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X . X X . O . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X . X O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O W O X O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . O . X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . 1 X . . C C C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C C C C C C C . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Probably more with the potential for white to link up at the marked white stone area.

So more than 20 points.

Beats all other moves, IMO.

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 159 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group