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 Post subject: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #1 Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:52 am 
Oza

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AGA rules, 7.5 komi okay? Do you care about open/closed book?

Go ahead and pick odd/even for nigiri.
85

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #2 Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:50 pm 
Lives in gote

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Rank: 4.1415...k kgs [5sf]
Universal go server handle: Elom, WindnWater
Greetings! Onegaishimas(u).

*Grips the stones with a sense of purpose, anticipating a clash of the minds of the, um, highest level as an enormous sweatdrop is emerges*

Not even at the first move yet...


:black: :black:

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #3 Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:04 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 394
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Rank: 4.1415...k kgs [5sf]
Universal go server handle: Elom, WindnWater
Oh, I'm not completely sure on the meaning of those terms ((I think they relate to studying joseki? Although I don't even go as so far to play the stones out on variations or the board when I play correspondence, usually :)), as I'm rather new to this method of playing, so if you think there are any advantages/disadvantages to each type of game, I'd be happy to learn.

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #4 Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:16 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2458
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Assuming you mean open/closed book, basically is referring to external sources, whether joseki books, databases, or otherwise, permitted during the game, or not?

Or was there another term?

It looks like victory is mine (in nigiri), so I'll post the board and a first move as black in a bit.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy!
I've been thinking about mukai komoku lately, so assuming my opponent plays to allow it, I think I will play that. Otherwise, maybe a cross opening?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #5 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:37 pm 
Lives in gote

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Universal go server handle: Elom, WindnWater
Thanks! I see. Well, I guess that means I usually play closed book, which adds the fun of spending forever deciding upon a move in the opening and then looking it up at the end of the game to decide if one's right...(that's if I actually *read* theory books...)
If it's fine with you, I don't mind playing closed book as I think we could then compare our opening thoughts (and dreams of what we hoped our opponent would play) at the end of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I decided to take a star point; if another corner is taken, I'll approach the upper right. :batman:

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #6 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:57 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2458
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
That's fine by me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a deep and meaningful post about the advantages and disadvantages of this particular opening strategy and prepared move. I'll grant it's rather opaque to the uninitiated, however.

I plan to see what white's move is before I formulate a plan. Possibly repeatedly.

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #7 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:09 pm 
Lives in gote

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Universal go server handle: Elom, WindnWater
Okay, have a good game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


that's the reason I approached from a further distance, however I don't think black will yield with a move like 5.

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:34 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2458
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh, interesting. I'm inclined to take the last corner and let white figure out how to use the omokuhazushi. The alternative, responding, makes me think that white could treat :w4: as a forcing move to prevent an enclosure and move on to the open corner.

That said, I'm not being facetious when I'm saying this is interesting. I much prefer a game like this to YACO (yet another chinese opening) or similar.

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #9 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:36 pm 
Judan

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's game is in its last throes. :mrgreen:

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #10 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:28 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 394
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Rank: 4.1415...k kgs [5sf]
Universal go server handle: Elom, WindnWater
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it works well with 4?

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #11 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:40 am 
Oza

Posts: 2458
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, I want to play in a way that I don't make white's move work well with his stone in the upper right. First, a few rejections:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O 4 . . . 6 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This type of play seems to help white make his stone in the upper right look well placed. I'd also rather not invite the possibility of an avalanche, as white's bottom right will break ladders and giving white the left side strength begs for white to get a favourable approach to the bottom left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . . . 6 . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I don't like this, or other moves on the left, either, since white still has good shape across the top. The outside attachment (not shown) does build the left, but at the expense of the corner and giving white decent strength on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . 1 . 6 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I have considered this pincer, but I feel white can counterattack too easily while fixing his shape. The three space pincer instead is tempting, but I think it gives white a lot of scope for action in the corner, and it doesn't impede O17 from making a base later either. On the other hand, it could be played as a kikashi of sorts, making it hard for white to get a lot from the top. Black could treat it lightly and then move it out later as the circumstances allow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 2 3 5 6 1 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 O 7 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X 5 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . a 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

This joseki is old but I think may work ok here. Black gets thickness to later harrass the upper left a bit, and can aim at the cut at A. There's no guarantee my opponent will play it though. In addition, black loses sente, so white will likely approach the last corner. I expect I could play a loose pincer if it comes to that. It's also not the easiest to attack the upper right stone, so maybe it's not that ideal here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 1 . . 5 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

If white plays to split, I think I could be comfortable with something like this.

And now for tenuki...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . c . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A move like :b1: or the low enclosure to simply enclose the corner seems attractive. It increases the size of a move on the bottom. If white A or B, black can aim to end in sente for C. If white C, black can approach at D and end in sente if white pincers. That doesn't tell me what to do on the upper side, though.

Indeed, because Q4 is low, I'm inclined to think that C3 and R16 have already limited its potential, and so I should move on to my own.

This leaves me thinking about the 3 space high pincer, the 1 space low, the corner enclosure, and now I'm revisiting the knight's move extension.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . O . b . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point, black has sente and there are two points that come to mind, A and B. If A...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The bottom becomes big and I think white will play there to limit black's development. On the other hand, it calls for black to approach the corner on the other side. I think I would be satisfied as black to either take the corner in sente or get a good side position here. I'm not very clear on 6-3 joseki myself, but I imagine white would later aim to press black's top right down while building in the center.

If black were to take B, on the other hand, I'm sure white would immediately approach the last corner, and black does have an invasion to aim at later, but it's not the most compelling. White is vulnerable to a shoulder hit on the central stone or a cap there later anyways.

I think I'm going to play this last way (A) because I want to make sure I stay high enough to compete later. If white tenukis :b7: a high pincer followup is quite severe.

I may have just overanalysed this, though, and am waffling. Perhaps the other move order, enclosure first, is better. It's certainly an orthodox move, in terms of completing a corner. The other two can go into 5-4 or 6-3 joseki fine. I need to think about these things less.

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #12 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:41 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nothing special, it just felt like somewhere that wanted to be played.

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #13 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


One may wonder why I didn't play 8; well, I'd be the last person to give advice on the merits/disadvantages of an opening move in most situations, so there! Okay, but in fact, I've settle to just playing what feels nice and figuring out why I liked a move (or not).

This may be a natural direction for the shimari, but for some reason white felt clumsy on the top side and it didn't feel so big to play here if I could put 6 to good use. I have no idea. Well, here goes...

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #14 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:11 pm 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . 9 , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm confused by this move. It feels too loose to be urgent for me, but at the same time, it would be nice to not be sealed in. In that respect, I'm looking at the elephant jump, the keima, ogeima, and attachments a little, but I'm still inclined to tenuki.

Looking at the bottom side, though, it feels a little remote. I think I'm going to play the three space pincer now because whites moves seem to aim at the top side, and this will make it smaller.

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #15 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . . . 9 , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought that it may be possible for a rough-and-tough approach to succeed, given this is in black's area of influence.

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #16 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:16 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Locally, A B and C and D all seem possible, though A feels most instinctual to me for some reason. I'm leaning towards D because of the J16 stone and not wanting to be sealed into the corner. I think I could handle a crosscut fight here without too much trouble, though the ladders are a pain.

On the other hand, this move looks crazy after looking at it in depth. Perhaps I should just go with A and treat it as a couple forcing moves before I play O15 or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #17 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:55 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I quickly settled on b15, which is impressively quick by my standards considering that this type of position could leave me pondering for the longest time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcfig_1.01 First Diagram!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . b X , O a . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black plays at a, white can take b, and if black takes b, I don't mind taking a. Black may do something more drastic with the power, I expect!

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #18 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:14 pm 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was about to post that I was regretting my move, and should have gone with the cut/attachment, because black ends up with a sealed group and a stone with a strong white group between after white just blocks naturally. Now, though, things are looking up.

Offline, I've looked at the extension, the outside hane, and the clamp. The clamp and hane both appear to be overplays. The extension, though, leaves this question:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I've looked at it on a board offline as well as thinking it over, and I'm pretty sure that black can either kill the cutting stone or come out quite favourably on the outside. I'm not going to put all my reading here, because it's a pain to create the diagrams, but...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 O X X 0 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X X O 7 9 . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

With lines like this, white's in more trouble than black is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 2 X X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 1 O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Here as well, white's got more issues than black. I've considered :b2: at :w3: as well in case this doesn't work out for some reason I see later.

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #19 Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:53 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 394
Location: UK
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Rank: 4.1415...k kgs [5sf]
Universal go server handle: Elom, WindnWater
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Heh, I feel like the upper left group is light and can support itself in so many ways, I'm sure black couldn't do anything severe, right?

_________________
B: We are only few. But we will do it. We will get through this preliminary and claim unforetold glory for millions of years to come!
Go stone Army: Yeah!!!
A: You might want to increase your chances from the level of just three people in your army. ?

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 Post subject: Re: #258, Skydyr vs Elom
Post #20 Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:26 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2458
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This feels a lot bigger than the other side to me. White seems a bit thin there in any case, so I can always harrass the left side later or get a free move in when white fixes.

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