It is currently Fri May 26, 2017 11:09 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #41 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:19 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
daal wrote:
Not one of the player's comments so far includes a diagram. My impression is that most stronger players use diagrams fairly often. My guess as to why is that these players are spending less thought about possible sequences in response to their moves than stronger players would.



It hadn't occurred to me to post diagrams during a game like this. The idea is to learn from one another's strategies, not to aid one another in reading. Just my thoughts.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #42 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:41 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
For those unclear on the concept:

Hidden comments, such as daal's, posts 32 through 39, are NOT meant for the players, unless otherwise noted.


This post by EdLee was liked by: daal
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #43 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:47 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
If :w1: , W has two good follow-ups, (a) and (b).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #44 Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:52 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Liked others: 1151
Was liked: 1044
Joelnelsonb wrote:
daal wrote:
Not one of the player's comments so far includes a diagram. My impression is that most stronger players use diagrams fairly often. My guess as to why is that these players are spending less thought about possible sequences in response to their moves than stronger players would.



It hadn't occurred to me to post diagrams during a game like this. The idea is to learn from one another's strategies, not to aid one another in reading. Just my thoughts.


As EdLee said, hidden comments are hidden from the players for a purpose, and that also goes for the hidden comments the players themselves make. The learning you speak of is designed to take place after the game is over, not during it, so hidden thoughts about moves should not serve to aid the opponent.

As to my hidden post, now that the is out of the bag, the point I was making was that in Malkovitch games, we often see the players show their thoughts in diagrams as well as words. This serves to show their specific thoughts as to what might take place. I guess my point might be moot if the reason you were not posting diagrams was that you didn't want to help your opponent, but my impression from the comments is that specific responses to your moves is not what either of you are focusing on. In contrast to Malkovitch games by some stronger players, both players here seem more interested in the general strategic flow than in specific sequences, and this difference might be an important one to note on our path to becoming stronger.

_________________
These moves are not part of a regular dan repertoire... - Knotwilg

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #45 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:56 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Liked others: 1151
Was liked: 1044
I hope I didn't derail this game ... :-?

_________________
These moves are not part of a regular dan repertoire... - Knotwilg

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #46 Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:00 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: OGS 9kyu
OGS: darev
Online playing schedule: Mostly OGS evenings and weekends.
Daal, don't wory about it. You didn't derail the game. I've been busy with classes recently, and need to contemplate my reply. Concerning hidden comments, generally, my opponent and I would be in agreement with keeping comments hidden. However, the two of us discussed in a PM before the game began, and we agreed that we would read each others comments on the moves. This is more of an open learning game for the both of us than it is a serious competition. We play more competitively on OGS. I realize this is not the usual course for a Malkovitch game to take, but we're doing it this way this time. I hope to post a move this evening to continue the game, and I hope my opponent is around.

Cheers.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #47 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:44 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
Your opponent is patient, Darev. You didn't actually think that I would let you off the hook with abandonment, did you???

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #48 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:47 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: OGS 9kyu
OGS: darev
Online playing schedule: Mostly OGS evenings and weekends.
Yes, thank you for your patience, gracious opponent. It's finals week. BTW, I haven't seen you around OGS recently, everything good?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #49 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:50 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: OGS 9kyu
OGS: darev
Online playing schedule: Mostly OGS evenings and weekends.
White 28:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The ladder is what it is. I want to make life in the bottom left as my top priority. Threatening the cut futhers this goal. If I do get to cut, then extend, I threaten the two stones of the D7 group.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #50 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:05 am 
Judan

Posts: 6079
Liked others: 1431
Was liked: 2328
rev wrote:
White 28:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The ladder is what it is. I want to make life in the bottom left as my top priority. Threatening the cut futhers this goal. If I do get to cut, then extend, I threaten the two stones of the D7 group.


I tell people that this is not go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . @ X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is go. :)

Not that the cut is necessarily the best local play, but the hane is almost certainly not. Here are some heuristics to compare the two plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Three to one
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? B W O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . ? @ ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? W O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First, let's just look at the surrounding 3x3 region. After the hane White has 3 stones to 1 stone for Black. That's a sign that White might be overconcentrated. Getting one stone ahead in a region is generally fine, but getting two stones ahead may well be inefficient. Note that White also gets two stones ahead in the surrounding 5x5 region.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White catches up
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? @ B X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? B W O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the cut lets White catch up to Black in the number of stones in the surrounding 3x3 region. And in the surrounding 5x5 region, as well. Better. :)

Now let's try my heuristic of treating the two moves as miai.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Five alive
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First, let White play the inside hane and then let Black make the solid connection. The connection gives the Black stones 5 dame. By Bruce Wilcox's "five alive" heuristic, that is very good for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Only two dame
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 B B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The cut leaves the :bc: stones with only two dame, a fact that White can exploit by a play at "a" after :b2:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In real life Black is more likely to atari at 2 first. Now there is a fight with multiple weak stones. But White should take heart in the fact that White can sacrifice the cutting stones to good effect, even if that is not the best play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 2 6 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White secures the corner and prevents the ladder at 5 in sente. Not too shabby. :) White does not have to read all this out when making the cut; it is a worst case scenario. White just has to realize that the sacrifice is a possibility.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 Big corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . a 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w5: and :w7: threaten a ladder at "a". After :b8: White can take kikashi with :w9: and then take a big corner with :w11:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Loose ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 5 O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If Black plays :b4: to threaten the cutting stones, White has a loose ladder. Note that Black has to worry about the cut at "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc5 Sacrifice
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X 3 7 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 O W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w5: at :wc:. :b6: captures. :b8: fills.

Even if White misses the loose ladder, sacrificing the cutting stones is again not too bad. After :w7: White has 5 dame (five alive). :w9: secures the corner and threatens Black's dumpling, if not to kill it, at least to force it to run on the second line.

In short, the hane is not go, the cut is. :)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"


This post by Bill Spight was liked by 3 people: daal, dfan, emeraldemon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #51 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:26 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
Hi Bill,
Quote:
After the hane White has 3 stones to 1 stone for Black. That's a sign that White might be overconcentrated. Getting one stone ahead in a region is generally fine, but getting two stones ahead may well be inefficient.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? B W O X X . . ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? @ ? . . . . . ? . ? ? 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? W O X . . . ? . ? 3 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . ? . ? ? 1 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This comparison of local stone counts as a heuristic is interesting.
For the common shape on the right, locally for the 3x3, B:W is 3:1 ;
( since this is true for many 3:1 ataris, we need other criteria to evaluate the situation )
and if we zoom out a bit, it's back to 3:3, and after :w6: connects, 3:4.
The other criteria are interesting. :)


This post by EdLee was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #52 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:19 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6079
Liked others: 1431
Was liked: 2328
Ed, et al.

I discovered this heuristic after studying pro games 20 years ago looking for local shapes (probably not named). I originally classified them according to the number of stone of each player, but it soon became apparent that a better classification was by the total number of stones and the difference between the number of stones of the two players. I found that the two most frequent moves were playing to a difference of zero (catch-up) and playing one more stone than the other player (moving ahead), the next most common moves were almost catching up and going two stones ahead, the last being the least frequent of the four. You can't make a rule of not going two stones ahead, as there are too many exceptions, but it should be a consideration. IMO it is something that DDKs should learn. It would have helped Darev to avoid the hane in this case. :) BTW, Sonoda 9p has proposed a similar idea, and even applies it to quite large regions. :D

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #53 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:47 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
Hi Bill,
Bill Spight wrote:
IMO it is something that DDKs should learn. It would have helped Darev to avoid the hane in this case. :) BTW, Sonoda 9p has proposed a similar idea, and even applies it to quite large regions. :D
Very interesting.

Bruce Wilcox has some similar introductory heuristics for contact fights concerning liberties.

These two, combined with Mr. Yoda's recent (?) book about his "new" theory of shapes... Hmm... probably good to go back and study these basics... :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #54 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:22 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
Black 29:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . # X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This direct response seems obvious and makes a nice foothold on the the left side.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #55 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:35 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #56 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:41 am 
Judan

Posts: 6079
Liked others: 1431
Was liked: 2328
Ed, you rascal! :D

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #57 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:26 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
Hi Bill,
:mrgreen:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #58 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:06 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: OGS 9kyu
OGS: darev
Online playing schedule: Mostly OGS evenings and weekends.
White 30:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . @ . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I need the hane here to prevent things from getting nasty in the corner.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #59 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:22 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7361
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 268
Was liked: 1651
GD Posts: 312
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev
Post #60 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:58 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
Black 31:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems forced; I'm surprised to see white didn't extend here

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group