It is currently Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:00 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #1 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:20 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
We're playing a two stone game. Japanese rules and closed book sound good?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Blake vs. skydyr move 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #2 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:31 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Blake is the person who introduced me to go years ago, and I left the game for a long time while he continued on. For most of the last decade until the past year, I barely played at all, and I don't think I've played him since 2006 or so, but I'd like to make a strong showing, since he was always ahead of me. I also have no idea what his style is like nowadays.

I don't tend to play 2 stone games as black very often, so I haven't really formulated a plan as yet. I tend to prefer asymmetrical corner moves to 4-4 and 3-3, but I don't want to give white an easy approach if it isn't miai with an approach to his corner.

Recently, I feel I've been in a bit of a fighting mood in my games, but I need to work on playing more solidly, and playing honte when appropriate. I'd appreciate comments on when it would be a better idea to reinforce than to tenuki so I can look over them later.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #3 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:19 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 32
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Blake vs. skydyr move 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Closed book and Japanese Rules sound like happy times!

I am 3 kyu on KGS, so this game is under-handicapped, going by the numbers; but I've been away from Go for a long time, busy with life-related things such as getting married, getting a better job, and buying a house. Since life seems to have settled down a bit recently, I've gotten back into the game, but find that I still have some weakness in reading due to the long layoff (3 years or so).

I showed skydyr how to play, and he's one of a few players who were my "students," so to speak, in the game. Only a couple of them have stuck with it for any length of time, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the game progresses.

Move 1: I am a territorial player by inclination, so many of my opening moves are biased toward the 3-4 point. I am also familiar with more of the joseki for this corner opening than some other moves. Given that this is a closed book game, that could be a real advantage.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #4 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:59 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A few thoughts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if I want to play this way. White might just approach d4 as a probe instead of making the shimari, but then if black responds in the lower left, white is free to play a mini-chinese or make a better informed choice of shimari later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Playing this 1, white can make the shimari and then if black makes his, white gets one of the 4's or approaches the bottom left. The two approaches to the 3-4s are miai, so I think it would be hard to screw up the result as black, as long as I don't overconcentrate myself later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black could use something like this to try to provoke a fight but I feel it's dependent on white's cooperation, and a white approach instead of 2 could mix up the game a bit more.

I've been looking at games from the 19th century recently, and the idea of leaving the corner open to approach white directly intrigues me. I've played three stone games where as black I responded to white's initial 4-4 with tengen, and then mirror the following white approach to break up the side, but I don't have the luxury of an extra stone in the center now. I would favour the high approach since it feels lighter if I want to tenuki after the response and take the open corner. I debated playing this move for a long time, but ended up feeling that the tenuki wasn't something I would end up being glad of in the long run.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #5 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:42 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 32
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Blake vs. skydyr move 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We seem to have lost a move somewhere. :)

Move 4: when faced with a situation like this, I like to invite Black to make patterns that I enjoy; for example, the clearest play for Black in this position is the common low extension:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Ideal Development
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With this type of response, W3 becomes a beautiful location, and a looks enticing for Black. In response to that, White has many choices, which is a nice position to be in.

I am avoiding the top left for now because the reason that I like a should lead black to like b, and so I like to give the game a chance to develop the way that I like before I provide my opponent with choices.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Territorial
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This variation is also fine. I play it pretty frequently. Although white is taking low positions, I am comfortable with that if I can pressure Black into giving up something elsewhere; my only concern is that this may be too slack, given the handicap, but a strong player once told me: "Play against handicap as if it doesn't exist. By the end of the game, it won't." I hope he was right!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #6 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:48 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
When you number the moves, from what I gather, odd moves are always black; so I jumped to make the colours correct.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #7 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:59 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2636
Liked others: 302
Was liked: 629
Rank: kgs 6k
skydyr wrote:
When you number the moves, from what I gather, odd moves are always black; so I jumped to make the colours correct.

No, no - you can put a "B" or "W" before the move number to set the color of the first sequential move.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #8 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:26 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm4B The correctly-numbered move 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My biggest question to myself right now is what kind of game would I like to play?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Some options I am considering
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , M . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . M M . . |
$$ | . . . X . M . . M , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, to break these down, there's a keima or ogeima extension, a pincer, and the attach-extend as direct responses, as well as forming a shimari and disrupting white's shimari.

The keima extension seems like the most basic response. It's very simple, white will probably play around k4 or l3, at which point black can take sente to approach the bottom right. White will then likely try to select a sente joseki or directly approach the top left in response. Black can then extend from the 3-4 down the side or use a kosumi to start forming a moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 keima response
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . 2 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white doesn't respond to 1, then I have the option of kicking f3 and then pincering at a later time.

The ogeima is similar to the keima, but opens up the corner more. It's also a little closer to the top side, making a future moyo based on a shimari a little tighter. I don't think that white is as likely to slide in at d2 because it will make black's response more efficient, but if white invades the 3-3 directly, I feel it weakens the white group on the bottom side and could be problematic if done too early, and I will always have the option of defending should white strengthen the bottom group. I wonder, though, if that would be too slow, or give away sente. I kind of like this move, though, because it's a little less conventional, so it might take my opponent out of his book, so to speak.

It's also possible that white would invade directly instead of setting up the framework on the bottom. I'm wondering which side would be better to defend in that case... the left could turn into a larger framework, but it also concedes one to white on the bottom. Do I want this game to become a moyo game? If I seal white in the corner with the standard 3-3 invasion to the 4-4 + ogeima I think the aji of the approach would be too great, so I would probably have to concede some for solidity. I still don't like the idea of the f3 stone's aji, though, and it hampers a good extension.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 The pincer, 3-3 invasion
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like the way black's wall is left facing the strong side of the 3-4 in the bottom right, but black gets left with sente to approach it. A standard approach seems to push white towards activating the aji of the original approach move, though, and I feel like black's stones are uncoordinated with the other corners.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Pincer double approach
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . 3 4 . 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . 7 O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel this has the same issue as the 3-3, in that black has strength but it's not facing the optimal direction. I am playing another turn based game where I took this option from the other side (white here), with my opposing corner stone on 4-4, and I think it worked out well for me there, so I don't want to play it here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Attach-extend
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 2 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 O . . . 6 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like the attach-extend joseki as much because white is left with sente, and if black makes a shimari, white will probably jump in near the marked point and reduce a lot of its use. I didn't give this a whole lot of thought, as I feel it's usually much better with a supporting stone around c10.

Tenuki options

If I tenuki to approach q3 or to form an enclosure on the top left, it is quite possible that white will take the miai alternative and I will be in the same position, but with more information, which I like. This leaves two questions: Whether to approach or make the enclosure, and what to do if white plays a double approach in the bottom left.

To take the second first, the real question is whether to respond to the double approach, or if taking a second tenuki to solidify things would be better. If I make the 3-4 5-4 enclosure in the top left, I think that a double approach would let me lean on the bottom approach stone at f3 to build a nice wall and pincer the left approach stone while extending from the shimari. As a result, I think white would enclose his own corner.

If I approach white's corner low, at the 5-3, and white makes the double approach, I would have the ladders to play the taisha if I'm feeling frisky, or I could press, or I could take the two space high pincer. A full-on taisha fight might be frightening for my opponent, but I am concerned that it would hurt what would be left of the bottom left corner for not much gain. I think it's a little more painful for black to tenuki away if white responds directly, though, than if black approached high, at the 5-4.

With the high approach, I think a white tenuki to make the double approach is a little easier than the low one, as white can get more in the corner after a second move, or white can more easily play towards the stone on f3. In exchange, though, white's expansion is pre-checked on the right side if black follows to take care of the d4 stone. If white stops black's shimari, the pincer of the f3 stone becomes more viable as it becomes a splitting attack as well. Lastly, if white plays against q5, I think black could treat it more lightly to return to the lower left as appropriate.

My two favourite options here are either the extension on the left side or the high approach at q5. I think that the extensions are more likely to lead to a moyo game and the approach to a more broken up game with smaller territories. I tend to end up in moyo games kind of by default, so I think I will go for the other approach, but I do find the ogeima very tempting. Tempting enough that I almost want to play another game with it in response.

If you haven't noticed by now, I tend to think rather deeply (dare I say overthink?) about the opening. I got tired of making diagrams, also, but if anyone wants one because something is unclear, please let me know.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #9 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:44 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 32
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White 5 - Double Approach
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White 5: I hate playing against the double low approach, so when it's allowed for me, I immediately play it. Sort of psychological self fake-out: by playing something that I hate having played against me, it gives me a nice feeling of momentum.

More seriously, I feel that the opportunity to do something interesting on the bottom left is more valuable than the need to reinforce the bottom right. After all, a second play there simply makes it as if I've played 3-4 against a 4-5, a relatively standard move; and, if I can negate the influence of the bottom-left 4-4 point, I'm not terribly worried about being shut in. Furthermore:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Good for white?
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X . 1 . .
$$ | . . 2 . 3 O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


I feel that black will want another move in this area if this is the sequence, meaning that I may be able to come back to the bottom right first. Alternately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Good for white?
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . W . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . .
$$ | . . 2 4 . O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


This sequence (or something similar) ends with a light stone with aji (the marked stone) and a very sturdy base in the corner, and I get sente. I like either outcome.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #10 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:01 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Move 6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As according to my plan, I am attaching now that white's been forced low on the bottom right to limit its potential.

I think that if white tenukis from this position to attend to the bottom right or top left now, I will be able to hane at g3 and disrupt white's potential on the bottom. If white wedges, black can double atari with e3. I'm comfortable enough with transposing to a 5-3 or 5-4 joseki on the top left, and the bottom right was high so that it would be easier to tenuki, if not right away then after a move or so.


Edit: I can't seem to get the diagram to work, but the move is the attachment at f4.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #11 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:13 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8730
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 328
Was liked: 2036
GD Posts: 312
There are many existing (Malkovich) boards and resources on the forum on how to diagram: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=226
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #12 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:42 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
EdLee wrote:
There are many existing (Malkovich) boards and resources on the forum on how to diagram: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... ?f=5&t=226


I'm still not sure exactly what I did wrong, but I suspect I'm missing a couple dashes or something like that. Thanks for the fix.

Looking at this again, I think just coming out with the kosumi would have been better, since it would keep white from climbing as easily on the bottom.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #13 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:46 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 32
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White 7
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White 7. I continue my strategy outlined in the previous comment. I expect that this will prove surprising, because the usual sequence would be:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Attach-Block
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . .
$$ | . . . X . X 1 .
$$ | . . . 4 3 O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


This is unattractive, though, because I would feel the need for an extension along the bottom after this pattern, and I really want to end in sente if I can wrangle it. I think that controlling the pace of play is more important in handicap games than in even games.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #14 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:21 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Which direction to block?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . , . . . M . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This is the way I was thinking at first, as black can build a wall and then pincer the lone white stone on the left side. This would work very well with a black shimari in the top left, so white will likely approach there. At that point, black could reasonably extend on the left side, attach on the outside of a high approach, or pincer a low approach to build a position on both sides. Black could also press down in the bottom right corner, as with the marked move, to build a wall that coordinates with the top right.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 O . . . . . . . M M O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Blocking this way seems to lower the value of a future shimari in the top left, making it less urgent. In exchange, black has more potential with the marked moves.

I think I prefer the first block, as the black responses in both corners can be tailored to better work with the stone in the upper right corner. It does seem to lead back to a moyo-oriented game that I was trying to get away from, however. I think I shall need to consider a bit.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #15 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:32 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #16 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:23 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 32
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White 9
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O W . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White 9. I had some second thoughts about this move, but I will press on. I am curious whether skydyr has played this sequence before; it's a slightly unnatural feeling position, for me, so it could prove interesting to see how it turns out on the board.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #17 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:54 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #18 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:55 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 32
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #19 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:53 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
I originally played the wedge expecting to fill like so, or similarly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 X . . .
$$ | . 7 O O X O 2 . .
$$ | . 8 . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Now I'm wondering about alternatives.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 5 at marked
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 3 . . . .
$$ | . 9 X X 2 X . . .
$$ | . 7 O O B O 1 . .
$$ | . . . 8 O 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


This would let black take a strong position on the lower side, and might coordinate well with more pressure on white's bottom right stone. The question is what to do if white fills the ko instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Three at marked.
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . 7 . . .
$$ | . . . 4 2 5 . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 X 6 . .
$$ | . . O O B O X . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

This looks pretty bad for black. White has the corner, and black is split and heavy. Black could perhaps split 5 and 7 from the side, but it still seems like a tough fight, and one not worth starting. The hane on the other side doesn't do much either, from what I can tell.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 4 at marked.
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 3 T . . .
$$ | . . X X 2 X 1 . .
$$ | . . O O B O S . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


This seems to let the white side stone off somewhat lightly, but black can later press on the bottom right or play the elephant jump cum pincer at O3 and then block white at the square point. The triangle point ladder works for black at the moment, but pretty much any approach to the upper right from the right side breaks the ladder. If he plays a keima kakari at r14, the attach-extend joseki should keep the ladder broken, but what does black do for a different approach? I don't think dealing with a double high approach is a winning move if black doesn't have to. Black could take sente to play r14 or q14 himself and get rid of the aji, but that lets white take care of the bottom side or the left. I still kind of like this move because it seems deep, but I have to conclude it's not a winning move. If anyone else has any thoughts on it, I'd love to hear them.

On second thought, black has the peep at d7 which sets up a loose ladder to protect the cut. A white move at c7 instead of c8 would prevent that, but I think that black could then pincer the white group pretty successfully. That would start a running fight, but I think black could profit more in the top left than white would profit on the bottom, as I expect the bottom will go to white anyways, and white would be making 3rd line territory. I'm pretty sure I'm going to play this, but I still have this nagging feeling that I am missing something. I haven't read anything terrible, so as I keep telling people, I have to play as I read to maintain any sense of fighting spirit.

The real question is how this compares to the original diagram. I think it keeps white lower on the bottom, at the expense of making the bottom left more solid. Is this better, worse, or just different?

I think the variation with the extension gives black better shape in the center for the fight to come.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm12
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr
Post #20 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:29 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1210
Liked others: 733
Was liked: 231
Rank: OGS 1d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
This is a pretty good example of how sometimes too much thinking could lead to inferior moves than the instinctive response (if my own games on here haven't been sufficient demonstrations :p). Clearly the connection is the only reasonable local move here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group