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 Post subject: 22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)
Post #1 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:24 am 
Gosei
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Welcome everyone! This will be (I think) the first Malkovich game that starts from the very beginning on the new and rapidly growing Life in 19x19 forums. I look forward to an excellent game with zinger. Regarding our playing strengths, I am between 4d-5d on KGS (depending on which account :D) and zinger is shodan. Due to the nature of Malkovich games, we decided on a reduced handicap of 2 stones. We also decided databases would be fair game, although he stated he wouldn't use it. I may, at most, use it sparingly if only for post-move analysis rather than making my move (no promise there though ;)).

Anyways, I wish my opponent zinger the best of luck!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Usually most people would say that the first move is not so important and thus would require little to no explanation. However, I think the first move is very important, if for different reasons than why other moves are considered important in Go. It lays the foundation not only for your stones, but for your mind as well. There is an interesting trivia that Yoda Norimoto once spent 20 minutes for his first move :lol: !

Say, for instance, I were to begin the game by playing at the 5-4 point instead of the 3-4 point. In that case, I would already begin to think about ways of utilizing influence and thickness from the move because the 5-4 places more emphasis on influence than territory and is more center-oriented (http://senseis.xmp.net/?54Point).

However, I don't think the converse is necessarily true for me regarding the 3-4 point: I am placing a bit more regard to territory than influence by playing the 3-4, but my main reason for playing this move is mostly by its comfort level to me. The 5-4 is a perfectly viable move (especially in larger handicap games where a corner is still open - 3 basically), but it is not a move I am very comfortable with. I know less joseki for it, I'm more of a cash player than an investment player, and with 2 stones I think it's fine to get myself out of the mindset that it is a handicap game and just treat and approach the game as if it were even and try to catch up naturally. If Black takes the time to occupy the other corner (which is most likely), then it also allows me to play my favorite fuseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, I am making the major assumption that Black will play 3. However, a pincer would be just fine for me because it allows for a few complications early in the game. Again, I emphasize that I am treating this game as if it were even, but at the same time I should also anticipate variations that are more complicated because it allows more opportunities.

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #2 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:30 am 
Gosei
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Thanks for all the description, Araban. It makes the game MUCH easier to understand, and more entertaining.

Would you please explain
a bit more about your favorite fuseki? I've never seen 4 as an extension from 2. I know you have to play more aggressively in a handicap game, but it looks a bit thin and easy to approach. Also, would you next expect your opponent to extend down the right side? Or where?

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #3 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:38 am 
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Welcome and good luck Araban!

Let's get started ..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I choose this for two reasons. One, vageuly I remember something Kajiwara said about the relationship between the black and white stone along the bottom side - he thought 1 is strong move. Also Araban is probably expecting me to play the empty corner. It's never to early to start disrupting the opponent's plans, especially when he is several stones stronger.

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #4 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:40 am 
Gosei
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Chew, you may be interested in this Sensei's page on the mini-Chinese fuseki.

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #5 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:43 am 
Gosei
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Thanks Fwiffo, I always forget the names for things =( Araban, you can read Fwiffo's last comment, I think.

My expectation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 2 . 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #6 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:53 am 
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Damn, this has already got my curiosity up, what the heck are people saying? lol

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #7 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:39 pm 
Gosei
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zinger: I know, eh? Especially when you're worried that they're discussing how wrong your last move was. From my own game I found that I just have to approach it with my normal confidence - like a baseball player at the plate, not focusing on what the fans thinks but simply playing my normal game. When I do that, I can enjoy getting people commenting on my moves rather than getting nervous about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #8 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:49 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Last edited by Solomon on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Solomon was liked by: topazg
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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #9 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:52 pm 
Tengen
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Hahaha, I'm so slow :D

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #10 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:19 pm 
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I'll offer a short sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect to still get sente to play in the empty corner, if white follows my offered line. But he might play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In which case chaos erupts and I have no idea what will happen next. But that's what makes it fun. With the two hoshi stones I think a fight is OK for black.

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:37 pm 
Gosei
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zinger wrote:
I expect to still get sente to play in the empty corner, if white follows my offered line. But he might play this:

In which case chaos erupts and I have no idea what will happen next. But that's what makes it fun. With the two hoshi stones I think a fight is OK for black.


For zinger:
By showing him the sequence in the open, he could be more likely not to follow it, than if you hadn't, just to put you out of your comfort zone. Or so I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #12 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:44 pm 
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for phelan:

Perhaps I am using reverse psychology ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #13 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:24 pm 
Gosei
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For Araban:
You can embed those videos:

Code:
[flash=480,385]http://www.youtube.com/v/3L5z1Sx5Huo&hl=en_US&fs=1&[/flash]



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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #14 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:59 pm 
Gosei
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I had this wide pincer played against me this last week in a teaching game:

[sgf-full]http://files.gokgs.com/games/2010/4/19/Battousai-fwiffo.sgf[/sgf-full]

Hmm, I seem to have some bugs when the sgf file starts out hidden...

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #15 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:57 am 
Gosei
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zinger wrote:
I'll offer a short sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect to still get sente to play in the empty corner, if white follows my offered line. But he might play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In which case chaos erupts and I have no idea what will happen next. But that's what makes it fun. With the two hoshi stones I think a fight is OK for black.

So 1 is the move you want to play, with 2-4 as triggers, or is this just thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #16 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:01 am 
Gosei
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Araban wrote:
So 1 is the move you want to play, with 2-4 as triggers, or is this just thoughts?

Triggers, from what I understand.

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Post #17 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:25 am 
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Correct, 1 is my actual move, the rest is conditional. You can accept 3, or 3 and 5, or neither.

btw I didn't know you were Sol.ch when I started .. now I am scared of all your trick moves since I don't use references :shock:

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Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #18 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:45 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To fwiffo:
I get an error when I try to embed: "You cannot use certain BBCodes: [flash]."

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #19 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:14 am 
Lives in gote
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Rank: hopeless
Another "trigger" offer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aha, the complicated line :) I only remember a few moves of joseki here, so I'll have to wing it if he plays something unexpected. In general I expect to capture the corner, perhaps with crappy shape, but still decent profit.

_________________
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort

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 Post subject: Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22
Post #20 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:24 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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