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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #21 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:39 am 
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Variation, for reference.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w5: strengthens :w1:, but Kirby will not make that play. It is too slow. (If I thought Kirby might make that play, I would not be posting this. :))

However, if he did, Black would have a number of good replies. :b6: is simple and strong. It attacks both :w3: and the :w1: - :w5: combination.

_________________
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— Winona Adkins

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Post #22 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:56 am 
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For Jika:
Jika, you can read this any time you want; just for reference:
Quote:
Would it have been better to play away from the corner, like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
The answer is partly in post 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #23 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:28 am 
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Jika mentioned to me in PM that she was getting a little bit overwhelmed by the comments. I advised that there are pros and cons to reading the comments up front. The benefit is the information you get from the comments. The downside is that it can lead to doubting oneself. :scratch:

I'll leave it up to Jika as to which comments she chooses to read - so if you have something addressed to Jika, it may or may not be seen until the end of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #24 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:35 am 
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have a little bit less to say about this move. It's a natural response to black's attachment (attach-hane!). Black directly touched my white stone, so playing the hane helps the situation a little bit.

Some other options I briefly considered were:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The sequence above doesn't seem as good. I can make some points on top, maybe, but it seems to just make black solid.

---

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 3 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could try something "fancier", but it seems that both of my groups are just weak, above. I do cut black in this variation, but my cutting stones are weak, so it's not that useful.

---

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could dive into the 3-3 immediately. It kind of simplifies the game and just keeps black solid, though...

---

I think Jika is playing well - hard to do much at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #25 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:42 am 
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@Kirby and all:
To clarify, as I mentioned to you all the comments are overwhelming in the way that I'm afraid I don't understand enough to do them justice.

But, as some of you said, I can see later if I understand more, so keep commenting please!!

My main problem is that once I've read the comments, especially Kirby's reasoning, I don't want to copy the good moves he expects or you are recommending because this feels like cheating.
I also assume I would not learn that much if playing moves I copy - I would learn good play, but not receive input regarding my own play.

So I'll try to find a way to not be influenced by the comments.
Maybe, I think Ed said so, plan my move first, and not change it, but read comments afterwards what move would have been advisable.

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #26 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:45 am 
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Hi Jika, :)
To put things in perspective: if this exact game happened at our Go coffee shop, with a beginner as :black: , and we review this game, I would not have made any comments up to here ( :w5: ). :)

So far, no problem. :mrgreen:

We over-commented, and overwhelmed you; sorry! :blackeye:


This post by EdLee was liked by: Jika
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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #27 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:02 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to help the stone Kirby is attacking.
- Edit: I think he is attacking now?? -
Moreover, I'm hoping this will help keeping my stones somehow connected in a kind of bend. But the bend is too far from the corner.
I'm not happy with my 4-4 handicap stone either. Poor stone, a gift left somehow behind?

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #28 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:55 am 
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Jika:
Quote:
I think he is attacking now??
Well, it's a fight, isn't it? :)

Hint:
Count: how many :white: stones here ?
How many :black: stones here ?
Who has more stones here ?

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #29 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:12 am 
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Jika :

What are the answers by white to your move that you considered ? Where would you play now if you were white ?

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #30 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:38 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In addition to defending :b4:, :b6: attacks :w1:. :) It is a dual purpose move.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #31 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:01 am 
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Jika wrote:
My main problem is that once I've read the comments, especially Kirby's reasoning, I don't want to copy the good moves he expects or you are recommending because this feels like cheating.
I also assume I would not learn that much if playing moves I copy - I would learn good play, but not receive input regarding my own play.

So I'll try to find a way to not be influenced by the comments.
Maybe, I think Ed said so, plan my move first, and not change it, but read comments afterwards what move would have been advisable.


That's an excellent idea. :)

Kirby is a very strong player. As a beginner, you have zero chance of winning this game, even with 9 stones. (But more stones might make for a less interesting game. :)) So if both you and Kirby agree, may I suggest that sometimes, at Kirby's suggestion, you be allowed to take a move back? Taking a move back was common practice among amateurs in Japan when I was learning go, and sometimes your opponent would suggest taking a move back. OC, in a serious game it was not done, but it was common in friendly games. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #32 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:17 am 
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Kirby, I use "Hide" because it makes posts shorter. You may read, oc!

@Ed: Depends how far "here" goes. :black: 4, :white: 3?

@Tryss:
I considered miai being good for me to protect my stone -

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but like this, white has a nice row and Kirby gets the corner.

Hm, but to be honest, my other ideas were worse:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(This always ends as doom for me.)

The following one was my first idea because it looks nice.
But it would not protect my stone.
(Hm, maybe it would be good to separate white, which my actual move does not, on the contrary?)

:lol: Now, I'm seeing Bill's polite suggestion (so my move was rubbish!) - I'd play this one - any better, Bill??
Edit: now I'm really confused, seeing both of Bill's posts - so, was my actual move bad or not :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The other thing I considered was "play somewhere more in the corner", because I assume Kirby will go there sooner or later, but this would not help my stone. So, while I would not let Kirby force me to play an answer there, I'd probably sacrifice my stone. (Beginners don't like to do that, right??)

So, moves without Kirby-reaction I considered:

Just because this is closer to the side, supporting my 4-4 stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks like one gets power in the corner, but it seems so unconnected to my other stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry there are no move numbers - I'm using Chrome web go board to make ASCII diagrams (not that good at changing the forum diagram directly, it looks so weird), and webgoboard does not support move numbers, it seems?

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #33 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:58 am 
Lives in gote
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@Jika: so far I think your moves are OK (so you don't need to take a move back), albeit a bit risky.

Important principles in Go include

(1) try to keep your stones connected
(2) try to disconnect your opponent's stones.

So far your moves achieve goal (2), but you are at risk of not achieving goal (1).

You might want to ask to take a move back if you make a mistake that you think is clearly avoidable, like not seeing an atari. This shouldn't stop you from counting liberties and checking if a group is in atari.


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Post #34 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:22 am 
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jlt wrote:
@Jika: so far I think your moves are OK (so you don't need to take a move back), albeit a bit risky.

Important principles in Go include

(1) try to keep your stones connected
(2) try to disconnect your opponent's stones.

So far your moves achieve goal (2), but you are at risk of not achieving goal (1).

You might want to ask to take a move back if you make a mistake that you think is clearly avoidable, like not seeing an atari. This shouldn't stop you from counting liberties and checking if a group is in atari.


@Jika: I didn't mean to imply that you have made any bad moves. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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Post #35 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Jika:
:black: = at least 4, yes ?
:white: = at most 3, yes ?

So, who has more stones here ? This question is not for me, but for you: you were wondering who is attacking whom, and this is a hint for you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #36 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:37 pm 
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Jika - I'll move when I can, but we are doing various things for labor day weekend, so response times may vary.

Today, we went canoeing, went to the fair, played some board games, played video games, went out for ice cream, and played outside... I think the kids had fun :-)

I don't have much to say about this move. I considered two possibilities - the move I played, and this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't really like the bump, because I feel like I have less options after black plays here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't say that I feel to be in a good position, or to have gained much, yet. But I'll still try to play in a normal way.

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Post #37 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:56 pm 
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Better late than never. ;)

After some playing around, my sealed move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #38 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:04 am 
Lives with ko

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Quote:
@Jika - I'll move when I can, but we are doing various things for labor day weekend, so response times may vary.


I'm relieved to hear that - I'm on vacation (general summer vacation) plus broke my big toe, so, much time on my hands... uhm, foot... to sit around, get bored and play around with go.

Because our game started fast (I mean: there was not much time between moves! How do I say that without confusing everyone about "fast"??), I was already concerned I would not have that much time in the future.

@Kirby: now, you made the move I expected (too late to change mine), and I'll have to deal with what I got myself into.

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I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #39 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:36 am 
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Jika wrote:
I'm relieved to hear that - I'm on vacation (general summer vacation) plus broke my big toe, so, much time on my hands... uhm, foot... to sit around, get bored and play around with go.


Sorry to hear about your toe. :( I hope you are on your feet again soon. :)

Quote:
Because our game started fast (I mean: there was not much time between moves! How do I say that without confusing everyone about "fast"??), I was already concerned I would not have that much time in the future.


There is a saying:
Go Proverb wrote:
Lose your first 100 games quickly.

OC, it is not meant to be taken literally. ;) But here are some points. 1) You can learn a lot just by playing. 2) When you are learning, it does not matter much whether you win or lose. 3) It is possible to "get lost in a maze of calculations," as chess author Znosko-Borovsky put it. That's not much fun and not very productive.

Now, Malkovich games are perforce slow paced by comparison with over the board games. But if time is a factor, as you indicate, may I suggest taking at most 1 minute to think about your move. 1 minute, even 2 or 3 minutes per day is not a lot of time to spend on a go game. :)

OC, you may spend some time on our comments, but you don't have to do that every day, as you yourself have indicated. :)

Now, if you enjoy cogitating about go moves, go right ahead. :) But if not, just take several seconds and make a move. Don't worry about whether it's a mistake or not. Remember, it is better to have played go and lost than never to have played go at all. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #40 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:36 am 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Moves I considered:

The one (miai) I had planned:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I do not like it any more because (as mentioned above) I feel like abandoning my hoshi handicap stone :sad:

This one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 8 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but when I tried to played on there was a high likelihood of ko, and Kirby would make better use of that, so no need to invite him.

This one I liked too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 8 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I figure there would be a higher likelihood of being pushed down from the corner.
Then I could not decide between this move and the one I chose to post, realized that I cannot predict this game anyway, and, well, there you are.

If someone wants to comment, especially which of those two would have been less foolish, I'm looking forward to that!


@Bill:
I'm not afraid I won't have time to play a move, and contemplating some variants is good for me (just to see if my idea of Kirby's next move comes even close to Kirby's next move, which I expect not to be the case :lol: )

My problem regarding time is still more with the diagrams:
I can't "see"/read the diagram ASCII here on the forum very well (you know the scenes in The Matrix where they can "see" what is going on in the original code of the matrix??), so I have to check and counter-check that the moves I am posting as my move and alternatives are really correct.

So, posting takes me more time than finding a move.

Edit 2: This sounds arrogant! I meant: I like playing around with moves, I consider them seriously, and I enjoy spending time on that.
I do not enjoy making diagrams, but I have to spend even more time on that than on the actual game.


And now - the sealed comments are to be opened!

Edit: Ooaah - Kirby expected me to do that?! I did not read his hidden text, I promise!!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!


Last edited by Jika on Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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