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Post #61 Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:49 am 
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@Jika:
Quote:
I had the strong feeling I have not learned anything from them.
This is possible, but unlikely.
Quote:
My stones were killed, killed, captured, killed, and it went so fast I could not see why.
We can't easily scan your brain while you play Go to visually see whether your neural structures have changed since before you started Go. We must wait and see. :)

If 12 months and 500 games have passed and you remain at the same level as when you started Go, then your suspicion is correct: you didn't learn much from the 500 games. :-| We'll see. :study:

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #62 Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:43 am 
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@ Jika:

All I can say is, your moves that I applauded were not, repeat, not beginner moves. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #63 Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:40 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Other moves I've considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Blocking, but my stone loses a liberty too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 2 . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Both F15 or H15.
I want to say "Don't cut off my D4 so easily", but pushing from there would be an invite to take the side, wouldn't it?

I also considered leaving some (well, a lot of) territory to Kirby, like "OK, play there, but I will play elsewhere, like Q17). But, first, I don't think it is a good idea to ignore Kirby (on the other hand, he might want me to follow him like walking a dog). Second, he might maybe place a second stone there and then follow me to attend to the upper left later.

Now I've spent 5 minutes on choosing the move and 8 minutes on posting.

Should I have spent more?

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #64 Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:19 pm 
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My thoughts about :b12:, before Jika played. :) Anyone can take a look.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . B . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When I was learning go, I would have chosen the simple jump from the corner (joseki). I would have been willing to sacrifice the :bc: stone, if necessary. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When I got stronger, I would have chosen this jump, cutting a couple of sector lines and attacking both sides. Banzai! ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . B . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Today, for a rank beginner I might suggest this kosumi, securing the corner and planning to sacrifice the :bc: stone. I would look forward to the slide at a or the underneath attachment at b.

Out of curiosity I took a look at Okigo Jizai. OC, this particular position does not occur in it, but Hattori showed how to attack, and might well have recommended this play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 White 13 not shown.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . 2 . O 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b12: threatens :b14:. If :w15:, :b16: makes a nice base in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm14 White 13 not shown. Bad for White.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . X . B 3 O 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If White tries to capture :b14: with :w15: - :w19:, :b20: - :b22: rips White to shreds. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . 2 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . 4 . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If White prevents the underneath attachment, Hattori might try :b14:, threatening to play at a. If now White prevents that play, :b16: attacks the :w11: stone. :)


@ Jika: With practice your time to make diagrams should decrease. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


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Post #65 Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 pm 
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@Jika:
Quote:
I've spent 5 minutes on choosing the move...
Should I have spent more?
I'll answer your question indirectly:

Your candidates ( including the actual game move :b12: ):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . C C . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . C . C . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Post #64's candidates:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . C . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . C . . . . . C . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Questions for you:

(a) How many of your candidates contact :w11: ( for this question, a diagonal hit is contact ) ? Click Show for the answer:
4. All your candidates contact :w11: ; 100%.
(b) How many of Post64's candidates touch :w11: ?
Zero. None of the 3 candidates touches :w11: ; 0%
(c) If you had spent another 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 1 week,
would you have asked yourself this question:
"To touch or not to touch :w11: -- why does it matter ? "
I'm guessing no, but I may be wrong. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #66 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:05 am 
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Thank you!

@Bill, Ed: I would not have chosen your moves after minutes.
Maybe I should not have spent my time talking about bicycles but revisit my move 12 the next day before I played it:

I think for me (this is my first 19x19) the idea of cutting off territory / securing a corner is not so familiar.
I had the strategy to somehow connect stones (in 1 move).

But maybe the next day my mood had changed from "connect them all" to "play secure". I can't tell.

I see your suggestions are making much more sense.
I don't understand the more complicated fights Bill posted, I often don't understand why a move "threatens to play at a" (because I would not have known that playing at "a" would be desirable, or why).

@Ed: I've looked up (Sabaki) what other moves I considered there:
J13, J14.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . B . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


So, those would have been better, at least J14?
I played around with them in Sabaki as variants, but - obviously - did not continue considering them.
So, it would have been safer and made more sense to stay away from Kirby's stone. I hope I'll remember!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #67 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:11 am 
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@Jika :)
Quote:
...at least J14?
For future reference: there are strengths and weaknesses in your knight's move J14:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This takes some study and experience to understand.

Comparison: the 1-space jump has different strengths and weaknesses:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This also takes time and effort to digest. :)


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Post #68 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:21 am 
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@Jika:
Quote:
So, it would have been safer and made more sense to stay away from Kirby's stone. I hope I'll remember!
It'll take some time, experience, and effort before the deeper meanings of post64's candidates become more clear to you.

My suggestion: be careful how you reached certain conclusions, like those quoted above. :blackeye:

Hint:
Go back and re-visit posts 64 & 65:
the idea of safety was never mentioned.

Repeat: be careful how you reach certain conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #69 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:49 am 
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@EdLee:

You are right that, since I know nothing about strategy, I should not draw conclusions from experienced players' moves.

In case this was another confusion with Go lingo: I meant "safe" to be like "play closer to stones / areas where I already have some influence; make smaller steps from there; or try to claim a corner instead of trying to connect all my stones on the board, which is more than I can chew on 19x19.

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #70 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:56 am 
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To butt into Jika and Ed's colloquy:

Jika, there is nothing wrong with forming working hypotheses from the play of better players. In fact, it's a good idea, as they can be the basis for programmatic imitation. I.e., not just copying surface behavior.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #71 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:11 pm 
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I debated about playing where I did, and playing here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The initial point of dividing black and white was to make black choose a side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . a . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like if black jumps at 'a', I can take advantage on the 'b' area with a double-approach type scenario. But if black defends at 'b', then I can aim to attack the stone on the top middle - it won't be big profit, but it's something in a 9-stone game.

So on one hand, Jika's move responds to help the top stone, so I could consider the double approach. But there are a couple of reasons to just answer like I did:
1. If we think about the game as a sequence of exchanges, I'm pretty sure the last white/black exchange gave me a small benefit - I got stronger in the 9-stone handicap game, and the knight's slide doesn't help the black group all that much (it helps a little bit).

2. If I double approach, I'm not really putting black under much pressure. Black can always slide under then:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black might not do this, but it gives black an easy way out.

So, I'll just answer Jika's last move, and treat it as a thank you exchange.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #72 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:32 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 12
Hm, bad news for me: My sabaki board (where I try variants) had somehow an additional black stone in a different position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm trying to give my stone more liberties.
I think Kirby wants to get the upper left (and will), only, how far will he come towards the middle/right? Do I want to sacrifice the bumped stone?

Other things I've considered:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

More liberties, but easier to cut off?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Blocking?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tries to bite off (too) much towards the centre?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because my imagined stone was there!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject:
Post #73 Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:37 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8667
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 2007
GD Posts: 312
@ Jika:
Quote:
I'm trying to give my stone more liberties.
Let's count liberties for :black: and :white: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 ( :black: 7; :white: 5 ); Net = ( :black: +2 )
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . C C . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X 4 C . .
$$ | . . . X . . O C C X C .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B ( :black: 7; :white: 4 ); Net = ( :black: +3 )
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O X C C . .
$$ | . . . X . . O 1 C X C .
$$ | . . . . . . . C . C . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Your 'drop' candidate:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 ( :black: 9; :white: 5 ); Net = ( :black: +4 )
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . C 4 C . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X C C . .
$$ | . . . X . . O C C X C .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now, let's look at points, very selectively:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 Game move: 5 points.
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? . .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X 4 ? . .
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Push-up: 6 points
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? . .
$$ | . . . . . . O X ? ? . .
$$ | . . . X . . O 1 . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Your 'drop' candidate:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 Drop: 6 points
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 ? ? . .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X ? ? . .
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #74 Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:27 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8627
Liked others: 1485
Was liked: 1462
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Jika's move is not what I expected. I expected this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O B . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It doesn't mean that Jika's move is not having value. But a lot of time, people might play as above, because it puts more pressure on the white stones. If white ignores, black is putting a lot of pressure on what - there's even that proverb about playing at the head of two stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 if white ignores
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So as a result, white feels inclined to answer - black keeps the initiative, because white is pressured:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since white is inclined to answer, black has strengthened the stones, and is now free to make a decision - do I continue locally, or play somewhere else? Black can think about it and come up with a strategy.

But given the game move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My white stones have lots of liberties and are not in as much immediate danger. So I have options to consider a different line.

So I decided to play somewhere else - the double approach.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #75 Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:10 pm 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've decided not to react to Kirby's move because I thought that my two groups there (upper line) are not really connected (were they?) and would be easy to separate.
I assume Kirby wants to extend down from the upper left corner as far as possible, taking the left side.
If he has the left and then separates my two groups I would not like it.

So, my basic decision seemed to be "cause trouble on the left side or play a connecting move along the upper side?".

Other moves I've considered:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This was my alternative move there, closer to my left group.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Direct bump, "you shall not pass!".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indirect?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Testing the nice white bend a bit.
Threatening to disconnect white stones.
I like this move a lot, but I think it is daring too.

Someone wrote (Ed?) that connecting one's stones is aim number one, while trying to disconnect the opponents is number two.

So, basically, was there any need to play a "connecting" move between my two?
I'm taking a high cost to do so.

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #76 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:50 am 
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@ Jika:
Quote:
Someone wrote (Ed?) that connecting one's stones is aim number one, while trying to disconnect the opponents is number two.
Not me. :)

Some people say that. But they don't give the caveats:
  • Connect and cut are only options ;
  • Those are merely exercises ! -- because beginners need experience ( like falling off a bike! ) ;
  • Don't make a bad connect ! A connect can be good/OK/bad !
  • Don't make a bad cut ! A cut can be good/OK/bad !
Quote:
So, basically, was there any need to play a "connecting" move between my two?
You mention "connecting your stones on top", but how, exactly ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . B 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #77 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:46 am 
Lives in gote
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@Ed and Jika :

I am afraid I am the person who said that connecting one's stones and disconnecting the opponent is important, but I should have mentioned caveats.

Anyway, if Kirby responds to the last move, he will be the one who disconnects your groups, and one of your groups may be "damaged".

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Post #78 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is some argument to be made that the ponnuki I have is strong, and I don't *need* a response to Jika's move here. From that perspective, I could play elsewhere - approach another corner, or crank up the pressure on the top left.

But thinking only in terms of exchanges, answering Jika seems like a net benefit to me - I get a stronger group, keep black separated, and have options to invade reduce points in the top right corner later.

Black's move doesn't totally protect the group on top, either, because there are still points to aim for as white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C . C C . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . C . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I think just keeping it simple, and answering is fine... I do have a 9-stone handicap deficit to make up, but it's still early in the game.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

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Post #79 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:03 am 
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@ jlt & Jika:
From my experience with Go beginners, it matters very little what you tell them: whether good, OK, or even bad advice; hell, even pros had been teaching "wrong" things, even adamantly, for hundreds of years before AlphaGo showed them what's what's ( e.g. early 3-3 jump-in; 5th line shoulder hit, etc. ).

What Go beginners need is fighting skills. That's it, basically.
How ? From experience ( first 100, 200, ... games, etc. ) ; some stress Go problems, OK ; finding a good teacher is like the lottery.

IMO, most of this kibitz is social ; actual benefit to Jika's Go career ? Debatable.

Thus, we're back to: Jika, just enjoy and play. :)
Kirby wrote:
There is some argument to be made that the ponnuki I have is strong
A pro might evaluate :white: 's ponnuki at :b11: as "dead". :rambo:
( Impossible for Jika to evaluate either assessment. )

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #80 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:18 am 
Lives in gote
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@Ed, Jika:

I agree that beginners shouldn't be overloaded with advice, that's why I am mostly chatting on this thread and giving almost no advice. However, when I was 17k, a stronger player told me that when playing with handicap, I should attack, which meant if possible:
  • don't allow my opponent to make a base
  • separate my opponent's groups
  • keep my stones connected.
Like with every proverb, these guidelines have many exceptions, and the conditions under which they should be applied may be misunderstood by beginners, but at least they give an immediate answer to the question that many beginners ask: "Where should I play? The board is so large, I am lost."

Of course there are other possible moves, like taking a big point, closing a territory, etc. but these kinds of moves are generally clear for beginners. On the other hand, the concept of attacking is much less obvious.

Since I found these guidelines useful when I was 17k, I thought I would reproduce them here, at the risk of being misunderstood.

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