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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #41 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:45 am 
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9-7
J7

Hane over top.

Given that he made a comment before his move, I presume he was reading hard before playing this move. The good news is that he decided to start with a somewhat crude move first, where I don't have to think very hard. Also, I'm not sure that this is the right timing at all - his stones on the O-line are going to be liability to die quickly, as opposed to helping exploit my weaknesses in the center. I think coming out with O7 attachment first was called for.

When you get attached in the most valuable area, the only candidates are hane or extend in some direction. In this case, if I extend I'm going to be further weakening my large knight's on the left for no apparent reason - I should, at least at first, only consider hane over top or cutting with the hane underneath.

If I hane under, he will cut, and then I can capture his cutting stone with a ladder at J7. The problem is that he would then atari at 11-6 and connect at 11-5, and my shape would be horribly broken, and I'd have lost initiative on the right. Cutting is committing too hard to the left large knight's jump.

So it only took me about a minute to verify that hane is the only basic candidate and at least a very reasonable answer. If there were no AI to potentially prove me wrong, I'd just go ahead and say it's the best move without further analysis. Having easy good moves like this means that my position can certainly be no worse than it was last move, so I'll just wait for him to show me what his plan is, and start reading seriously then. I can't imagine a sequence where I'm going to wish I had responded to this attachment in some other way.

What will he do next? Maybe crosscut at K7 (10-7). I think I have a decent sequence planned out for that. If he pushes along at 8-6 then he's bumping his head into my large knight and making me look like a genius joseki-innovator, but if he tenuki's entirely then this was a bad exchange for W. Maybe he wants to clamp at 11-6? I should just be able to cut it. He might descend down at J5, in which case I'm probably going to kill him gently by securing my outside weaknesses. This is not the time to play heavy shapes. I think if I were white, I would crosscut at K7, it looks like the most promising use of this aji.

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Post #42 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:57 am 
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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #43 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:08 pm 
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11-3
L3

I think this should either help make a base or help me cut across the knights move at 11-6.. I think..

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Post #44 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #45 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:53 pm 
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13-2
N2

Atari, and connection underneath.

Huh? He kicked? Why? Obviously, if I let him connect by playing tiger's mouth at 12-2 himself I'm going to have a bad time. So my only options are 13-2 to connect to my wall, 13-3 to make a weird defensive shape, and 12-2 to keep locally strong shape. If his move is a good move, I probably have to play 12-2 or he'll take advantage of my shape somehow.

The only reason he could have played this move is if he's looking for aji to play out a sequence somewhere else and wants a good exchange first. The key is to give him as little of use as possible here. I think he might be looking at the crosscut at 6-4, 7-4, 7-3, and trying to ensure himself life on the bottom? I think I'm just going to respond passively over there at the point, giving him a large corner in order to take the bottom strongly.

13-3 I can't really see a good reason for. It seems to just give him another nice forcing move by descending at 11-2, threatening again to play 13-2 to connect himself.

My first instinct was 13-2, but then the shape looked a little suspicious and I thought there might be some small trap. If he wedges, I atari, and he connects with an empty triangle, then I'd like to connect on top to help with the knight's move weakness. I thought at first that he would then play atari from his two stones at 13-3. I totally forgot that his two stones right now have barely any liberties, so that if he does such a thing, it's self atari. All he could do is double atari with 12-2, and when I connect, he'd be out of forcing moves. If he connects that back and hopes I respond, I certainly don't have to locally to maintain my capture of his first line stone. I'll note here that this is my first misread that I can say is almost certainly caused by not looking at the board :)

Overall, though, that's looking really promising for 13-2 over 12-2. If there's not immediate tactical reason not to, it will make me so much stronger in the potential fight at the center to connect while disconnecting. He needs some other order of moves to exploit my shape locally. Maybe the clamp again at 11-6? My plan was to play 11-5 cutting it, and it doesn't seem by my reading that this exchange will help him exploit that. The center crosscut seems to go much better when I don't have to worry so much about my 12-th line stones, because they're connected to my wall. I can't read anywhere he can take advantage, then, so I'm just going take my connection and claim a good exchange.

Next move I expect he will get to the point and define a shape for these middle stones somewhere. The white stones on the 14-th line are basically toast for him after my move, so I'm expecting something to do with my large knight on the left. I don't think there's anything that good to do there, so I think he's about to crash and burn. This has become a very difficult position for white.

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Post #46 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #47 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:27 am 
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12-4
M4

I think we're heading for one of a number of kos.
Either b13-4,w11-6,b10-5,w11-5,b11-4

Or b13-4,w11-6,b11-5,w10-5,b10-7,w12-2..
At this point in my dreams
B13-3,w13-5,black capture something, w12-6
But in reality
B11-4,w13-3 for I think a ko.
Seems likely I've missed something hope there are no ghost stones on my mental board! I am yet to reread the moves in the post

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #48 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:38 am 
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It's starting to get complicated, I think I'll start to look at diagrams pretty soon.

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #49 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:45 am 
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13-4
N4

Atari.

I don't blame jlt, this game is making progressively less sense. I just read this out in my hidden last move. Can't I can connect on top after he connects, where this exchange is really bad for W? The only think I can think of is that he wants to make ko and play 11-5 next, but even there I can push up at 12-6 and he's completely surrounded, still.

Don't make this kind of forcing move unless you're making another move significantly better than it would be otherwise. At this rate, even if he lives comfortably (somehow) I'll still coast to an easy victory from all the bad exchanges he's made.

I thought about adding a trigger for when he connects solid, but it's so obviously bad to connect solid I'm almost sure he has some other plan. I don't want my having set a trigger to change whatever he's cooking over there.

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #50 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:47 am 
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11-6
L6

As previous. Could go very wrong very quickly for me

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #51 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:00 am 
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Interesting suggestion by TelegraphGo that this might be a position AI likes for W, but humans struggle with. Using Leela Master GX89, White is still narrowly favored (52-48%) at 6000 playouts, but it seems hard to me, and apparently also to MikeKyle.

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #52 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:07 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
Interesting suggestion by TelegraphGo that this might be a position AI likes for W, but humans struggle with. Using Leela Master GX89, White is still narrowly favored (52-48%) at 6000 playouts, but it seems hard to me, and apparently also to MikeKyle.


Katago also put white slighly ahead 57%wr/1.7pts at 20k playouts

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Post #53 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:45 am 
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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #54 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:05 pm 
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11-5
L5

Trigger if you play 10-5:
10-7
K7
(connect)




Cut.

I finally understand what he's going for, and why I didn't see it at all before. For some reason, after I played my jump at M5 to practically kill off K4, he decided he was going to make K4 live. At the very least, that's bad timing, because there was better opportunity for K4 before I played M5. More importantly, it's way too heavy. What would black have done if white ignored K4 for 50 moves? Probably nothing with respect to K4. So why should white immediately try to rescue it?

If you do feel a need to rescue K4, you should keep in mind that the stone itself is small. That's why I was suggesting crosscuts all over the place - the easiest way to stop your opponent from claiming a big area is to force them to make a choice within the area and take advantage of whichever direction they don't choose. Before he made these exchanges like kick and Atari, K4 was really light, so he could offer it as an option. Now, not so much.

The sequence I expect is 10-5 Atari, 10-7 connect, 11-4 connect, 13-5 connect, 12-2 double Atari, 13-3 connect. He then has to live with 9-6, 10-5, 10-4, 11-3, and a loose 12-2. It's probably possible, but we're looking at a heck of a lot of influence for me by whenever he lives.

Actually I see some potential ko variations on the left, so I think he shouldn't exchange the 11-4 connect and the 12-2 Atari, but save them for potential ko threats to help him live. Also, I'll have a harder time taking advantage of liberty shortages, potentially. So probably he should exchange the atari (since he's already committed to K4) and then play on the left somewhere. It's getting interesting! :D

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Post #55 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #56 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:48 pm 
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10-5
K5

=> Trigger accepted b10-7

12-2
M2

This ko seems bigger and he does seem to have all the threats. Hopefully I have a lot of threats to just live.

Although I'm being beaten up a bit, this is a lot of fun!

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #57 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:00 pm 
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13-3
N3

Connect.
He used a ko threat - I guess he doesn't want me to play 11-2 first, but probably he could've always gotten back to this before I would have done that. Oh well. The ball is now firmly in his court.

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #58 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:16 pm 
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13-5
N5

I'm a bit scared that I'm seeing ghost stones!

Or else..
Woo! I really like this result. I think I'm out and/or alive without strengthening black too much.

I really thought black needed to capture on the 4th line at which point I'd capture on the second line, he would cut on the 4th line and I would have to fight a ko

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #59 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:20 pm 
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14-4
O4
Captures: B - 2, W - 0

:shock: :oops:

This is embarrassing. I missed this move entirely. It's atari on my four stones, and threatening a snapback on my two stones. If I capture 11-4 he will atari outside at 12-6, and if I connect 12-4, he will capture at 14-4. I played my last couple moves way too fast for a blindfold game, I should have been a little more careful. I can almost guarantee I'd have seen this in a non-blindfold game from when I played 13-2: I was purposefully looking for this kind of aji but couldn't quite find it. I should have played 12-2 instead, which is better shape but less greedy. I didn't even look for the combo from when he played 11-6, else I'd have backed off at 11-7 instead of cutting. I just over-trusted my blindfold reading and thought he had nothing here.
Anyway, when I capture at 14-4 he can play 12-6 regardless, and I can't save the stone because of snapback. After that he has 11-6 and 12-6 facing the center and connected, where I have 10-7 and 14-7 pulling a very half-hearted surround. My attack here is mostly over, though I'll probably play a move on the left to solidify myself next - my weaknesses are much more brutally exploited when he's not half-dead. It might even end up being sente, since I can play 13-6 to prevent an eye in the snapback formation. My style relies that I catch all these sorts of tricks in my normal games :D

Alas. I never claimed to play well blindfolded! I'll probably have a little less trust in my blind reading from now on. I still think I have a good chance of winning this game - I judge the board as just about proper for what the handicap should be between us. I'm not going to overplay or go crazy, but if I play good moves he should make enough small errors that I can make the game close by the endgame. Probably a more educational game than the blind-reading festival it was going to be.

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Post #60 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:38 pm 
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12-6
M6

Have I settled here in sente?
Black can probably tenuki, but I "see" just one eye. Reading isn't as hard as I thought it might be (accepting that I could be looking very stupid if I'm missing something) but judging results is hard.

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