Life In 19x19http://lifein19x19.com/ MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17059 Page 1 of 11

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:09 pm ] Post subject: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) This thread will be host to the blind Malkovitch between me and MikeKyle mentioned at https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17050. If there's a better place for this, tell me. The rules are: 1. Players may not look at any hidden posts not addressed explicitly to them.2. Closed book - neither player may reference databases/AI/etc. to inform their move.3. We may not ever look at the game on a board. We may only visualize the board from moves written in text form, ex: D4, 10-10. Our comments will be textual as well, of course. (Note to spectators: Please do not include any diagrams/SGFs in comments addressed to us, it would ruin the fun.)4. If we ever must go back and reread the text for the moves that happened - and we probably will if there is a long gap between play - we will mention it in my hidden comment for the move played.5. If one of us reaches the point that they feel they can no longer visualize the game, they can declare an early end, pending on audience approval. I'll try not to do this, but I expect that by early endgame it's going to be too hard for me to keep track of everything.In terms of how to give textual notation, I can most easily visualize with number-number (4-16) notation. Here's a map from the letters indexing diagrams to numbers for reference: A = 1B = 2C = 3D = 4E = 5F = 6G = 7H = 8J = 9 K = 10L = 11M = 12N = 13O = 14P = 15Q = 16R = 17S = 18T = 19Unless you have specific preference, let's play an even game, 7.5 komi, Japanese rules.Any further clarifications? If not, pick even/odd before looking in my hidden.9Good luck!

 Author: MikeKyle [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:05 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) Thanks so much for setting this up.Onegaishimas /お願いします/ Have a pleasant game. Odd

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:56 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 16-16Very happy to have black, I was almost going to ask for it without nigiri. It's usually easier to replay games after playing them when I'm black. I think it's because I take control of the story of the game in the beginning.I have to decide which orientation I want to think of the board! I checked a diagram elsewhere, it seems that A-T is the x-axis and 1-19 is the y axis for this forum. So I'm just going to think of my moves as (x,y) on a cartesian plane. I want to play in the upper right corner so that the game goes as closely to those I've seen before as possible. I'm really hoping he doesn't take the bottom right corner, it would mess up my memorization a lot I'm playing the 4-4 point in hopes that he's going to give me influence at some point. I find it much easier to control influence games, and I think I can keep track of an attack pretty well. I have a few personal 'fuseki' from dual 4-4 points in my back pocket, too, which have slightly unusual moves (AI gives them -1% to -3%) that force white into playing the kind of game I enjoy the most. Don't worry, no 3-3 invasions My goal in this particular game is to start a fight that can force resignation before I lose track of the game; that means I want to play ambitiously enough in the opening that later he has to accept a fight where I can force resignation.My greatest strength compared to my peers is my skill at deep-reading and visualization, which is maybe why I was a bit overconfident in general professionals in the thread that spawned this one. Pretty much all my other skills are low-dan AGA level at most, which might be about his level. I really hope that my reading ability will still carry over despite not seeing the position! I have some strategies cooking to make sure I don't forget anything important. I'll talk about them later, this is long enough of a post for one move

 Author: MikeKyle [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:38 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 4-4I am a bit torn. I'd like to see how far we can get in the game in which case it would make sense to play a patient low complexity game. However despite my opponent being considerably stronger I'd like to try to win. Given the slightly unusual nature of the game I might have an outside chance - I would expect this to favour the stronger player but maybe the element of confusion means I have an outside chance too. I think I'll try create a moyo game since that will be tougher for us both to visualise.

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:09 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 16-4I almost opened his hide by habit, since I've read a few of these before, but never played! I'll have to make sure never to do that. Anyway, I'm very happy I got to play bottom right. It took me a moment to figure out what the numbers were in (x,y) - I might practice associating coordinates to points away from the game for a minute or two.Anyway, I expect my strategic comments this game are going to have some really dumb errors, since I can't just look at the board to see why I'm wrong. Whenever this game ends, I'll try to go back over everything and draw a diagram for places I disagree with my past (or future perfect?) self.

 Author: MikeKyle [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:48 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 4-16tempted to play a 5-4 in this corner but that really would feel like playing into the hands of the stronger player.

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:30 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 6-3Low approach.Oh boy, it's cold over here. I just had a nice music lesson and dinner, and I couldn't help myself from planning ahead in this game. Anyway, I'm a little disappointed that he didn't play 4-17 (komoku facing his stone), as I'm really comfortable with that opening (it's most common v. dual 4-4s these days, at least against me).Against this move, I have some standard plans, but most of them are exceptionally aggressive. I was realizing over dinner that my mental eye isn't nearly as good as my fleshy one at deciphering good and bad exchanges, which is the heuristic I primarily use to judge moves in my aggressive openings. So I'm just going to aim to play principled Go here, in hopes that it'll make things easy to remember later. I expect him to back off, and then I'm going to simply assist the weakest stone on the board.

 Author: EdLee [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:36 pm ] Post subject: Enjoy! So, only Mike can see the board, yes?Also, not familiar with the digit-digit coödinates system.Used to A1 ... T19. Could one of you please explain which point is 1-1 ? Is it A1 or A19 ?Telegraph: is your first move 16-16 at D16 (top left) or Q16 (top right) ?Post 3 wrote:I want to play in the upper left corner...

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:50 pm ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) Yep, only Mike can see the board. I've been thinking of it as the first digit being the letter, A = 1. By the reference table, we've played Q16, D4, Q4, D16, F3. That should be black on the right and white on the left, with black approaching the bottom left. If Mike shows something different in diagrams, please do tell me so that I don't start yapping on about lefts that look like rights and tops that look like bottoms.Perhaps from now on we should put our moves in both coordinate systems in the plaintext? I doubt it will confuse anyone Oh and that should have said the top right. Whoops! Editing my comment.

 Author: EdLee [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:53 pm ] Post subject: Hi Telegraph, thanks.Maybe typo? post 3 wrote:I want to play in the upper left corner...

 Author: EdLee [ Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:56 pm ] Post subject: Spoiler: Diagram!Diagram, for my sanity: Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bc \$\$ -----------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ----------------------------------------[/go]` 16-16 Q16, 4-4 D4, 16-4 Q4, 4-16 D16, 6-3 F3

 Author: MikeKyle [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:22 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) I'm going to post this here for reference, but if you object to it being here then please let me know and I'll remove it. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bc For coordinate reference \$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`To clarify I also intend to not look at a board (except maybe this one.) 3-6(c6) I'll keep things simple for now

 Author: EdLee [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:41 am ] Post subject: Spoiler: Diagram! Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bc \$\$ -----------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ----------------------------------------[/go]` 16-16 Q16, 4-4 D4, 16-4 Q4, 4-16 D16, 6-3 F3, 3-6 C6

 Author: jlt [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:59 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) So far I can follow without the diagram @EdLee: I think you should hide the list of moves, since the players are not supposed to re-read the moves that were already played.TelegraphGo wrote:4. If I ever must go back and reread the text for the moves that happened - and I probably will if there is a long gap between play - I will mention it in my hidden comment for the move I play.Edit: EdLee has just done that.

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:27 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) You're gonna be blind too? I hadn't realized, but that changes my stategy a little Anyways, I guess if we're both not looking at the board, we should both never open any hidden comment without our name on it, so it's not strictly necessary (though mildly amusing) to give a warning that your post has diagrams, as we'll not click on it anyway.7-6G-6Large Knight's move into the center.I didn't realize he was intent on being blind too! Well, that just makes me want to fight even more, since I think I can crush his reading. Maybe I should just play normally and wait for mistakes, since it's a more consistent way to win against players you outmatch. But this is mostly for fun, so fun moves it is!Speaking of fun moves, I've never seen the move I'm playing before, but it also seems to be the most natural move I've never seen before. If white tries to cut, I should be fine, by my reading and my intuition (it's only a 2v2 scenario, everything is still light, my stones have decent shape as is - you can only be punished if you've made a mistake).If white tries to kick, my knight's move is already in a fine position. I think it will be well-placed in the fighting that happens with the 4-5 attach, 3-5 block, 3-3 invade follow up. I think the local follow up I'm most afraid of is 4-2, locking down the corner and threatening invasions on my side, but I can just ignore it and tenuki entirely - I should be able to get a faster opening than him if he digs down too early. Actually, I think the best thing he can do is probably tenuki himself. Maybe approach my bottom right corner? Basically, the intent of this move is to start developing really, really fast, at least somewhere around the board, so that he's forced to play to start a fight early. And I don't think I'm unfavored, so I'm just in a position that makes me happy. Maybe with some study, I'll add this to my personal bag of 'fuseki' after the game. I'll have to see what AI says, maybe there's a really nice continuation for W that I'm missing.

 Author: MikeKyle [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:48 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 14-3O3Is his different strategy to confuse me by playing moves that I have no experience in visualising? I will try play fairly sensible for now. Moyo plan on the back burner for now (I never like them anyway.)Edit - to include board coordinates, then to correct board coordinates

 Author: jlt [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:52 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) Did you mean O-3?

 Author: MikeKyle [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:55 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) jlt wrote:Did you mean O-3?Thanks, fixed

 Author: TelegraphGo [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:17 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 12-3M3As expected. If I just back off, then white can become strong in front of my large knight's move. Since I'm trying to claim that that is influence, I shouldn't allow W to build a group in front of it - I'll not be able to use it to fight or build or anything, so W becomes obviously more efficient in the bottom left. So I must pincer (kick and attach over top are not my style and not good here regardless).Which pincer? Well, if I'm afraid of being shoulder hit later, I should play high, but I think I'm not actually that scared. My large knight's isn't committing into the bottom, it's just sorta there. So, if he builds a group later by shoulder hitting and I'm reduced, that should be okay. The tighter way to play makes it as unappetizing as possible to commit to the stone for white, instead of invading my corner. I'm very happy if he jumps and shoulder hits my stone, building a center oriented group, where I've already come out to the center. So, I'll go with the normal move here, activating my previous stones as much as possible.

 Author: MikeKyle [ Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:19 am ] Post subject: Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind) 17-3R-3Jumping into 3-3 feels like a mild risk of making that weird move look more natural, but I can't see how it won't remain weird looking. If this bottom side turns into moyo then I think invading/reducing will be fun blind!

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