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 Post subject: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:18 pm 
Lives in gote
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Rank: KGS 7 kyu
KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
This would have been 106 but seeing as the topazg vs Kirby game is #106 and there is no 105 I thought I'd take it to keep continuity.

Malkovich type: Standard (closed comments, semi-closed joseki dictionary)
Handicap: Reverse handicap of 34.5 points

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Good luck and good game to you emerus. :D

Thoughts on the opening
I'm planning on playing a 3-3 and a 3-4 point. There are several reasons for this: the first and foremost is that I think trading territory for influence always favors the stronger player since he'll have an easier time negating the weaker players influence. The second is that my plan in this format is to keep things simple and grad territory and nothing is simpler and grabs territory better than a 3-3 point :D
But there are also some non game related reasons. For a long time I thought the 3-3 point was a stupid opening because it was way too low and I've just recently learned that is actually a feasible play. I've also been addicted to influence orientated openings for a long time and I'm trying to break the habit.

I'm playing the 3-3 first because it does not give white a good hint at what I'm planning and it's hard for him to approach it with the first move (which I might consider as white if my opponent played a asymmetrical move, just to complicate things) Also the 3-4 point has a certain direction of play and I can choose the exact location of the stone in response to whites move. I’ll also try and play cross-positions if my opponent lets me.

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Posts: 547
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Rank: KGS 2dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Good game and good luck.


I play this 3-4 because I do not like giving orthodox-like formations to black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will immediately approach if he tries for some kind enclosure move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he takes another 3-3, then I will play for a bit of influence in the last corner.

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Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:40 pm 
Honinbo
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Have a nice game.
Mnemonic:
Mnemonic wrote:
semi-closed joseki dictionary
What does this mean? That you can consult joseki dictionaries only when you're half awake? :mrgreen:
Mnemonic wrote:
For a long time I thought the 3-3 point was a stupid opening because it was way too low and I've just recently learned that is actually a feasible play.
Not only is it feasible, it's a pro move! A few years ago Ming Jiu 7p opened at the 3-3 (and won that game and all the rest at that Toyota tourney.) :)

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #4 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:30 am 
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KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Ed:
Semi-closed joseki dictionary means that it is not expressly forbidden to look at dictionaries, but also not encouraged. And I know that the 33 point is played professionally, I just never could appreciate it myself until now :D

@Obs:
If white takes the last corner I'm planning on playing a shimari to threaten an awesome approach to the lower left corner. White will then probably play some sort of shimari himself, but that is fine by me because it would avoid complications, which is my goal.
I played the 3-4 point in the direction I did, because I can now easily ignore a 3-5 point approach to take the last corner. A white stone at P3 looks awesome, whereas one at R5 looks slightly misplaced.

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #5 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Rank: KGS 2dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah, this is probably the most expected move by black but I have no special plan for it. I'm just taking the last corner.

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #6 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Mnemonic:
As White in a handicap game, I almost always prefer to end up on the influence side of your hypothetical influence / territory trade. Especially if its a large reverse komi, I know I would never win by trying to match Black for points. Rather, I think its better for White to play for thickness and create complicated situations where fighting is paramount. As Black, I always try to deny White control of the center. Local point losses can be reluctantly swallowed, but if White is allowed to shape the global situation and affect fighting on a large scale, things usually look bleak.

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #7 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:50 pm 
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KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Comments tomorrow

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #8 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Rank: KGS 2dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm just going to play a normal, territorial fuseki that I'm comfortable with. The options are near limitless so I wont have variations. The focal point is on establishing the bottom for either player. There will be a lot of pincers, I expect.

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #9 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:11 pm 
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Rank: KGS 7 kyu
KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 7 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Aphelion
I agree that coping with a lot of white influence is always hard in handicap games, but coping with white in general is always hard in handicap games :D However I feel that allowing white to have a point parity by early midgame would be a death sentence to you (even if your position is way thicker than in normal games) But I guess this discussion is more about style and without any sample games it is hard to conclude anything.

I said I was going to play the shimari but I didn't like this result. It seems like white stones are already working together well whereas my stones are just sitting in a corner (well, that's what you get for playing a 33 point. I said I didn't like 'em :-? )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Didn't like the wedge at (a) either
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played the actual :b5: high because I am more comfortable with it and because it's harder to lead to crazy pincer sequences. I was hoping for something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White tenukied, which seems reasonable considering the upper diagram. Now to the move I actually chose: It is solid, securing a corner and putting pressure on white. All the things I like :D

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #10 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:15 pm 
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@Mnemonic
Just want to compliment you on your fuseki so far. It's been way saner and better principled than the average 8k's flailing.


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Post #11 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:40 am 
Honinbo
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Mnemonic:
Mnemonic wrote:
I said I was going to play the shimari but I didn't like this result. It seems like white stones are already working together well whereas my stones are just sitting in a corner
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Didn't like the wedge at (a) either
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't know much about opening at the 3-3,
but if we move your 3-3 back to the star point at :bc:, then
the following choices for :b7: -- big wedge (a), approach (b),
and approach (c) (if :wc: was at the 3-4 (d)) -- are all quite standard and OK.
So your variation looks OK to me, but if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #12 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:54 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 547
Liked others: 13
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Rank: KGS 2dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I mentioned last post. I believe the bottom is the area of importance here - even more so with a black 3-3 in the top right. So, while unusual in modern games, I quite like black o4 here.

My decision was between a and b. I like the joseki after a so I'm going with it.

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #13 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:08 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 324
Location: Dresden
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Rank: KGS 7 kyu
KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@emerus
Just so that you don't feel left out with all the hidden comments directed at me :mrgreen:

I was afraid of that move, mainly because I don't know how to handle pincers very well. Nobody plays them at the KGS 8k level, hell, they hardly play the low approach :-? Now I'm pretty sure that I can't tenuki (at least I've never heard of it, and it looks like a really bad idea) so how should I answer this? I know the starting point of some of the josekies, but my lack of experience is starting to show :sad:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 after which W plays a or b and I don't know how to continue
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 3 X a . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 4 5 O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks like an epic fight which I'm destined to lose so let's try something else

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 This looks reasonable, currently looking at a or b next
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . O . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Ed
I'm not saying it is unplayable and I would definitely consider that in an even game, but in this game I want to try to avoid weak groups if possible. :D

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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Post #14 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:27 am 
Honinbo
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Mnemonic:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 3 X a . .
$$ | . . 1 2 4 5 O .
$$ | . . . . . b . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
It's good you knew the vital point :b13:. This sequence is not that complicated and happens quite often. Good to study. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #15 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:09 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Quote:
So, while [P4 is] unusual in modern games


I just want to mention that somehow the diagonal has gotten a reputation as an "old move" among amateurs (probably Hikaru no Go?), but it isn't actually. I used GoGoD to search games from 1990 to the present, and found it was the second most popular move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Most common responses, 1990-2011
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . W . . . c
$$ | . . X , . . . a .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


a - 2090 games
b - 1860 games
c - 1109 games
plus a bunch of other stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #16 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:13 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Indeed. In fact, Choi Cheolhan played it just the other day (move 61) :)

[sgf-full](;
WR[8d]
BR[9d]
RE[W+R]
FF[4]
SZ[19]
PW[Heo Yeongho]
GM[1]
DT[2011-03-10]
PB[Choi Cheolhan]
KM[6.5]
EV[3rd BC Card Cup]
RO[3]
SO[Mr. Kin]
;B[qd];W[dc];B[de];W[ce];B[dd];W[cd];B[ec];W[cf];B[df];W[dg];B[cc]
;W[db];B[bc];W[cb];B[cg];W[ch];B[bb];W[eb];B[bg];W[bf];B[bh];W[bd]
;B[fc];W[dh];B[ci];W[di];B[cj];W[fb];B[fe];W[dj];B[ck];W[gc];B[gd]
;W[hc];B[hf];W[el];B[dm];W[pp];B[gi];W[em];B[dn];W[fo];B[dq];W[fq]
;B[jp];W[hl];B[nq];W[qn];B[ho];W[hq];B[ep];W[go];B[iq];W[hp];B[pr]
;W[qq];B[ip];W[hn];B[no];W[oc];B[pe];W[pi];B[nd];W[lo];B[lq];W[nn]
;B[on];W[oo];B[nm];W[mn];B[pk];W[pn];B[oi];W[oh];B[oj];W[pg];B[nh]
;W[ng];B[mh];W[mg];B[lg];W[me];B[nc];W[lh];B[mj];W[nb];B[od];W[pj]
;B[ok];W[lc];B[qh];W[ph];B[kg];W[pb];B[qg];W[qf];B[pf];W[qk];B[rf]
;W[rj];B[pc];W[ob];B[qb];W[li];B[jh];W[lj];B[lk];W[kk];B[ll];W[jj]
;B[kl];W[ik];B[om];W[np];B[mi];W[gg];B[hd];W[id];B[ie];W[jd];B[dk]
;W[fj];B[fi];W[ej];B[fg];W[fh];B[gh];W[ff];B[eh];W[eg];B[mp];W[mo]
;B[gf];W[fh];B[hr];W[gr];B[fg];W[dr];B[cr];W[qr];B[ef];W[nr];B[mr]
;W[oq];B[mq];W[or];B[ir];W[er];B[bq];W[io];B[kr];W[ba];B[ql];W[rl]
;B[qm];W[rm];B[kd];W[ke];B[kc];W[ld];B[mb];W[mc];B[je];W[kb];B[kf]
;W[le];B[pa];W[lb];B[en];W[jl])[/sgf-full]

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #17 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:41 pm 
Lives in gote

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Rank: KGS 2dan
KGS: emerus
<my mistake - removed>

emeraldemon wrote:
Quote:
So, while [P4 is] unusual in modern games


I just want to mention that somehow the diagonal has gotten a reputation as an "old move" among amateurs (probably Hikaru no Go?), but it isn't actually. I used GoGoD to search games from 1990 to the present, and found it was the second most popular move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Most common responses, 1990-2011
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . W . . . c
$$ | . . X , . . . a .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


a - 2090 games
b - 1860 games
c - 1109 games
plus a bunch of other stuff.



Yeah I was worried that might have been misunderstood. I was referring to the position on the bottom of the board where the 2 space high or the more aggressive 1 space high pincer is the fashion.


Last edited by emerus on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #18 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:51 pm 
Honinbo
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 322
Was liked: 1984
GD Posts: 312
emerus wrote:
Yeah I was worried that might have been misunderstood. I was referring to the position on the bottom of the board where the 2 space high or the more aggressive 1 space high pincer is the fashion.
I thought this was a closed comments game?

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 Post subject: Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Post #19 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:58 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 547
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 17
Rank: KGS 2dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 0 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[]DT[2011-03-23]PC

[http://lifein19x19.com/]AW[dd][qo][cp][gq]AB[qc][ep][op][pq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/

]PL[B]
(;B[fo]C[I think this is the simplest move and right idea - but my move would be at e2.]MN[9]
(;W[cm]
;B[hp]
(;W[iq]
;B[kq]C[I like black.])
(;W[dq]
;B[eq]C[I dont see a good white move to use

g3.]))
(;W[dq]C[I'm leaning towards just territory.]
;B[hp]
;W[fr]
;B[in])
(;W[go]
;B[gn]
;W[gp]C[I dont

know some of the other variations for this. But I really like the common line here -]
;B[hn]
;W[eq]))
(;B[er]
;W[dn]
;B[fo]
;W[jq]C[I feel black has some more potential this way.]))[/sgf-full]

Ugh, forum posting is killing me. I can't get any post right. :oops:


Last edited by emerus on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #20 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:59 pm 
Lives in gote

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KGS: emerus
EdLee wrote:
emerus wrote:
Yeah I was worried that might have been misunderstood. I was referring to the position on the bottom of the board where the 2 space high or the more aggressive 1 space high pincer is the fashion.
I thought this was a closed comments game?


Oh woops. No, I just misquoted the wrong post. Didn't even realize or read it, though I guess I saw it.

Sorry fellas....

Quote:
@emerus
Just so that you don't feel left out with all the hidden comments directed at me :mrgreen:

@mnemonic
Aw, how sweet. :D It's cool that this is an observed malkovich. Your comments must be pretty good.

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