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 Post subject: 31. padic (6k) vs. Splatted (6k)
Post #1 Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:35 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 43
Liked others: 21
Was liked: 6
Rank: KGS 5 kyu
Hello! I'm going to be playing a Malkovich game against Splatted. I'm KGS 6 kyu and from what I understand he's either 5 or 6 kyu, so we'll be playing an even game (with komi 6.5). By coin toss, it's been decided that I'll take black.

Like most Malkovich games seem to be, this is a hidden comments game, where we won't be reading each others' comments. We'll be allowing both joseki books and game databases, though from what I understand neither of us will really be using game databases a lot.

I feel I'm a pretty "theoretically weak" player, so this'll be an interesting opportunity for me to hopefully think some quality thoughts about my moves.

I wish my opponent (and myself) a great game :).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not going to pretend that I have a very complex or interesting rationale for choosing this for my first move. My first move is almost always either 4-4 or 3-4 -- if I'm feeling very experimental, 5-4 or 3-3. To the extent that there's any strategy to choosing 4-4 over 3-4, it's a way to prevent myself from making serious mistakes; preemptive damage control. With a 3-4 based opening I feel that there's a slight risk of me (being very much fallible when it comes to fuseki and joseki) getting into a sequence that leaves me without any effective enclosures, negating the advantages I can see to such an opening. For the 4-4 point I know a few basic sequences and I'm unlikely to be totally baffled by my opponent's reply.

I expect my opponent to answer noncommittally on the 4-4 point diagonally opposite mine. In that case, I'll probably either be playing a 3-4 point sharing a fourth line with my first stone, threatening to complete either a Chinese fuseki formation or just making an enclosure, or just taking another 4-4 point (theoretically threatening san-ren-sei, but I'm more likely to use move five for an approach).

If my opponent plays a 3-4 point, I'm likely to answer on another 4-4 point, since that'd leave me able to prevent their enclosure without having to worry about completing one of my own to get the most out of my opening stones.

If my opponent answers in a corner adjacent to mine, I'll accept that as an offer to play a diagonal opening, which I'm fairly sure I recall is supposed to lead to more fighting. I'm not very good at opening strategy, so it's in my interest to get past that and into some tactical situations as soon as possible.

So, basically, I have no plan yet. Here's an authoritative-looking link to Sensei's Library to back me up on that being a good idea.


(Edit: the diagram didn't work the first time around.)

(Edit: normalized the title a bit, due to the other thread about that.)


Last edited by padic on Mon May 03, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #2 Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Hi Padic, Have a good game.

As Padic said I'm about KGS 6 kyu (I was only 5 kyu for 1 game :roll: )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As with my game against Kirby I decided in this game I will try to stick to my normal style, which is very influence orientated, so that I can try to work on some of the weaknesses that have become apparant in faster games. In particular I want to focus on finding the correct balance between influence and territory, as too often I choose to trade large territories for relatively worthless thickness.

As white I don't really have a standard opening, as it really depends on what black does. Obviously I'm playing 4-4 with the intention of playing for influence.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #3 Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:59 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 43
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Rank: KGS 5 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(Diagram editing question! What's the "Bcm" stuff at the start of the diagram code? Should I change that? Also, is there any way to use two-digit numbers as stone labels?)

My second move! Time for analysis paralysis.

As I see it, I have two or three reasonable choices here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . b c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


First, the Chinese fuseki. People seem to play this a lot on KGS, and it intimidates me a bit when I go up against it, but I don't have a good grasp of how to play it myself. My impression is that the idea is to force white to make an uncomfortable invasion, and then take territory and influence while chasing it (my impression is that this is more or less the idea of any large moyo-oriented opening.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


(The high Chinese is a variation with 3 on a.) As I understand it, a central idea is that black is not going to form an enclosure at b immediately (as would otherwise be a natural instinct with a lonesome 3-4 stone on the board); this is one of the points where black welcomes a white invasion. 3 acts like a loose pincer already in place.

The downside of playing the Chinese opening is that it's a well-known opening which I'm not actually very familiar with. My opponent might be. Still, since we've established that it's okay to consult books during the game (this will be Sensei's Library for me; I don't have any book books about the opening), I could read up on it and I might learn something.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . d . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Taking another 4-4 point is another option. After this, playing c is possible for a moyo-oriented game (san-ren-sei) somewhat similar to the Chinese, but I'm more used to just going straight ahead and approaching one of the white corners at a or b.

The obvious advantage of this is that I get to choose where to make the first approach, and make it before white gets in any moves that makes that approach more awkward. On the other hand, I'm not sure I could capitalize on this: I don't have a good grasp on the difference between a and b, and the joseki for d and e I'm not very familiar with at all. (I have a nasty tendency to approach low whenever I need to approach.) I'm guessing that a/d might be better, since stuff like the one-space pincer seems to work out well for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 8 a . c e . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 6 5 9 b . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . 7 . . . . d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The influence black is getting towards the center seems to work well with black's upper right corner. On the other hand -- assuming this judgement is correct -- this probably just means that white won't play that pincer. Less options for white is an advantage for me, but not much of one if white still has other excellent options left.

The third option, c, the other 3-4 point, I don't like as much. I think white would reply by taking the last 4-4 point and I'd be almost forced to make an enclosure for the stone to make sense, leaving white with sente to reduce the influence exerted by the enclosure. It doesn't seem like it would accomplish much more than taking the corner, which I don't think is enough at this point.

Having considered all that, while I think all options are very much playable, I have to choose one and I'll be going with the Chinese fuseki. I'll probably learn something about it, and I'm sure there's a reason it's so popular.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #4 Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:43 pm 
Gosei

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padic,

The first line of the diagram code is a set of options for the diagram.

The first letter is B or W, and indicates what color move "1" in the diagram will be. The second letter is a c indicating that the diagram should have coordinates around the edges. The 3rd letter is an m and is followed by a number. It indicates what number should be assigned to the diagram's move "1".

Examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Black to move, start at number 37, coordinates
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm45 Black to move, start at number 45, no coordinates
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Marcus was liked by 3 people: padic, prokofiev, Splatted
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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #5 Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:55 am 
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Thx Marcus, that was really useful (even though it wasn't for me :ugeek: ).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 4 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think Padic's either going for a Chinese opening or a shimari on the bottom right, as Q3 feels too low for an attack at f3 (I've explained why in the other spoiler). Against both moves I want to attack the top right stone, though I don't have a particular reason for this, so I may decide to make a shimari. The explanation below also covers my reason for playing C16 in preperation for an attack on the top right.


Explanation

If he was attacking at f3 he R4 is better because an invasion of the bottom would become unnapealing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a possible result of an attack on the left, :b5: & :bc: are suporting each other, making an invasion on the bottom a bad move (as in the proverb, don't play close to strong stones), while attacking :bc: from the side is no more appealing than it would normally be. This is an important difference compared to :bc: at Q3, which would invite an attack from Q5/R5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . a b . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As you can see from the above diagram if white attacks the 3-4 stone with :wc: black can pincer at a/b. (probably "a" because it makes a more solid connection with :bc:)

You can see why this is bad for white if you first imagine the black group on the left is not there. In this situation a/b are joseki, and give a reasonable result to both sides. If the result is about equal without the black group on the left, then it must become unequal when we include it. Black gets the usual gain fro the joseki, but in addition he gets to extend and seal off the territory covered by :bc:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . 1 . . W . 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This shows the position after joseki (I just picked a random one though, so maybe white can do better).

White suffers the same problem if he attacks the left hand group

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , 2 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . 1 W . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


black 3 gives a nice shimari and puts pressure on the white group.

Of course, white can try to stop this from happening in the by pincering, to split the groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 4 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . W , B . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . O . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I still feel this is good for black (though I'm not certain, would appreciate comments from a stronger player on this). It looks to me like white's group on the bottom is small compared to black's territory in the corner, and along the left side, though it is less invadable. Mainly though, it doesn't have the same scope for development. White can push along the left to make influence, but pushing on the right is questionable (he can't keep black low). If he doesn't push on the right black has a nice follow up at "a" which keeps white low and builds influence for black. Whites pincer seems to have resulted in white getting pincered on a much larger (and proportionately more damaging) scale.

White may choose to tenuki ratther than attack the bottom right with :wc: , but this should result in black getting to make a shimari (not immediately), showing that :bc: was correct.

I'm not entirely sure this isn't all nonsense though :mrgreen:

Edit: The fact that a 2dan posted a comment on it suggests I just wasted 2 hours :oops:



This is now complete.


Last edited by Splatted on Sat May 01, 2010 9:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #6 Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:50 am 
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Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a 5 , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . c b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



:b5: here is actually bad---not fish nor flesh. The good places are 'a', one to the left (keima), or 'b', one below (niken biraki, two-space extension). :b5: here leaves a weakness at 'c'.

In choosing which shape to play, the high-low balance should be taken into account. With :bc: facing this side (being high on this side), one should prefer the low move for balance. If :bc: was facing the other side (being low on this side), one can think about playing the high move, but this is not so clear cut; the distance to the next stones also has to be taken into account. The niken biraki additionally completes the shape (making attack from the side less severe), so this is often preferred.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #7 Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:58 am 
Gosei

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For padic:

F3 is actually a common :b5: with Q3 in place. It's the beginning of what's known as the Kobayashi Fuseki (link), and is one of my favourite openings. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Kobayashi Fuseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


See the link to Sensei's Library above for more details.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #8 Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:02 pm 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was (and am still) slightly unsure about this. If white had played the last 4-4 point I'd have completed my Chinese formation without hesitation; instead, I now do the same thing with some hesitation.

It's interesting to note that White 3 is apparently almost, but not quite, a known anti-Chinese opening pattern:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BcNot quite the game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this situation it's apparently considered beneficial to prevent white's enclosure by playing something like b instead of completing the formation at a, since otherwise the enclosure will be in a position to negate the advantage the formation is supposed to give along the lower side. The 3-4 point, from what little I know of opening theory, is at least normally considered to "aim" at one side over the other; the side on which it is on the third line. As I understand it, if white without much trouble can establish a healthy base right where the 3-4 point is supposed to have influence, much of the point of that stone disappears. It's natural that having an enclosure instead of just a single 4-4 stone in the corner facing the stone would make this easier for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the game, however, the corner where I'll be allowing white an enclosure if I play the Chinese is the top corner, facing my 4-4 stone, not my 3-4 stone. The enclosure presumably still has the effect of giving white influence over the top, but my thinking is that that might be less of a problem since the upper 4-4 is not as dependent on control of the top side as the lower 3-4 is on control of the bottom.

If my opponent completes the enclosure, that'll give me sente to make some other move, such as an approach to the white 4-4 (I think it's best to stay away from the enclosure) a or b, or a middle play along the side -- following the above theorizing about 3-4 points, d, to hinder white, or c, to help myself.

e, creating an enclosure from my own 3-4 point, is also a natural-looking point, but as I understand it, the whole point of the Chinese opening is that I shouldn't play this. I am supposed to stake out a lot of influence with a few stones, not use many stones to try to turn the entire right side into territory. Intuitively, after playing e here I'd feel as if I'd first made an enclosure and then made an awkward neither-fowl-nor-fish extension to my side stone (in the "wrong" direction) -- not enough gain to justify three stones in one quadrant of the board.


Marcus:
I briefly flashed that open and it looked like it was opening strategy related, is it still safe to read in the sense that I've burned my bridges already?

Also, thanks for the diagram help!

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #9 Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:06 pm 
Gosei

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D'oh!

That was for Splatted. :P

It's safe to read now for you, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #10 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:33 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned


Lol Marcus, thx that was really interesting, I'm going to be trying that in my next KGS game.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #11 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've just played a tournament where in one game I did very well with the Chinese against a somewhat stronger player, so I return to this game with heightened spirits about my formation.

In that game (as I remember it), white made an enclosure with move three, I took the lower side star point, and white then made a low approach to my 3-4 stone. That approach worked out poorly for him, leaving him living with some points but entirely surrounded. White then did the natural extension to the middle point of the side aimed at by his enclosure (I think on the third line), and I replied with a long knight's move from my 4-4 point, after which we both made one-space jumps towards the center. For reasons that are unclear to me -- perhaps to gain points without invading uncomfortably, but at what cost? -- white then made the 3-3 point invasion under my 4-4 stone, leaving me with sente and a strong wall facing my other stones (that had surrounded the first approach). As the game went on, white eventually saw a need to break into the large black (rather solidified) moyo, and was cut off and killed in a fight where all the center influence proved very useful.

Now, that probably gives me a bit of a rosy view of how this is going to work out. (White, though somewhat stronger than me, was not very familiar with the Chinese fuseki.) But it does give me an idea of how I want to play. When white approaches or enters my moyo, I want to chase him, or surround him completely if possible, gaining influence while not worrying very much about denying my opponent territory or comfortable life. Ideally, I also want one middle point along a "neutral" side, preferably the lower side (where I have my 3-4 non-enclosure).

Now, white has approached my 4-4 from outside with a low knight's move. I will be addressing this somehow, not trying to prevent their unfinished enclosure from forming, as I want to build a framework of my own, rather than prevent anything at all from getting built.

Now, what are my choices? The low one-space pincer is the countermove I'm most familiar with. This seems tempting, as a common response to that pincer is jumping into the corner, and at that point, I get almost exactly what I want:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Great! For me, anyway
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Unfortunately choosing this variation requires cooperation from white, which I'm unlikely to get. (I also have a sneaking suspicion that there are alternatives to 6 for white in joseki that I am not familiar with that are more appropriate for this situation.) White could also just make a one-space jump, in which case this is pretty much the only joseki I know:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Not so great
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a 9 . 7 5 X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . 8 6 2 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . 4 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is exactly what I don't want: white gets lots of influence towards the center, and black gets a little bit of territory (and the opportunity to make some trouble with a damaging cut later). I can't give white the opportunity to make me play this.

Digging around a little bit in my joseki resources (Eidogo and SL), I've found the large low knight's move extension. (The initial move is what the name would indicate; a low long keima away from white's stone.) The point, as I understand it, is that this move makes a claim of what might be understood as an unreasonably large corner. The only (?) thing white can do to prevent this is to invade, so it's a move that is likely to force an early white 3-3 invasion. If this happens, the main line seems to end with black building a humongous wall, in a direction of their choice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to choose direction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Here's one alternative, assuming this joseki is played "by the book" all the way, which is vanishingly improbable.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Alternative one
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 X O . . |
$$ | . . O , b c . . 0 , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . d . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The great thing about this variation is that the joseki really calls for me to play a move at a; since I already have a stone almost exactly there (famous last words, I know), I will instead take sente. I might play at b, c, d, or e. If I feel like a high stone around a is actually really important, I might play f, going by the principle that the stone on the third line and the stone on the sixth line should sort of average out to perform the work of a stone around the fourth line. (As well as performing the function of establishing a rather fearsome moyo that white will have to invade.)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Alternative two, wishful thinking
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , 9 . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the result of the other line. (Actually not the end result; in the line white establishes a low group along the top and black covers it and gets a lot of central influence.) This looks great, but I think it's wishful thinking -- I don't think this is optimal play for white when the Chinese formation middle stone is in place. I expect my opponent to deviate from the joseki I'm playing at some point (I'm sure I will all the time, too) -- but I don't want them to be right when they do.

Alternative one looks attractive and, fuzzily, in the sense that I'd be hoping for a similar but not equal result, realistic to me. I'll play the large knight's move extension and hope that white invades.

If they don't, I can probably leave the possibility open for a while playing other moves. If they settle instead of invading, I'll just get a large corner, which is not terrible. I'd like to find a sequence to get whatever I get in sente, though, so I can make a side extension.

Things I'm worrying about: so far, I've played all of my moves on the right side of the board. I need more than one side of the board to win, so I should play some moves elsewhere as well to be sure white can't attain total dominance of the rest of the board. If white loosely pulls back towards their enclosure-to-be, I might jump in to split and create some trouble. Otherwise I might just play an approach to their 4-4 stone; possibly an inside approach for "splitting power".

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #12 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:32 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 734
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Universal go server handle: Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 8 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Eidogo says that to play Q18, like I would if black had played R14, results in a minor loss of balance, however I can't see how any of the others are better, so I'm still considering playing it.

Here are some of the possibilities;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , 3 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This doesn't seem bad, but compared to "a" :bc: makes more territory and works better with R9. I really don't want to let him have this for free so I'm not happy with this move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . W . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The circled stones are the last moves of the Joseki, I ran out of numbers and it didn't seem worth an extra diagram.

This one seemed tempting at first, as it takes advantage of the extra space to invade the corner, however the corner is still quite small, and black gets lots of influence, which works well with the chinese fuseki. I definitely prefer Q18 to this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This one is sente, which is obviously a big plus, but I still don't really like it. Locally black has a large corner, which can not be invaded, while white has no definite claim to the top. The 3 space extension next to a strong black position just doesn't seem sensible, though EidoGo does clearly state that Q17 is gote for black. I guess to properly assess this position I need to think about what I would do with Sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a a . . . . . . . W . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O , a a . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . c . . d . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These are the moves I'm considering, I've decided to put my thoughts about them in seperate spoiler boxes to decrease the amount of scrolling required to refer back to the diagram.



Making at shimari at one of the "a"s is tempting because it would strengthen 1, and by extension :wc: . I feel that this makes a big difference to my position on the top, but it feels sub-optimal, both locally and with regards to the whole board. "a" doesn't seem to agree with the intention of 1, which is about speed and influence, rather than solid territorial play. If I immediately defend it I am giving up sente, but "a" still doesn't fix the weaknesses in my formation, and Black will not want to play there yet anyway(same reasoning as move:4). M16/17 might be better in place of "a", but both are incredibly slow. I'm definitely ruling this out, but it does make me consider a shorter extension in place of 1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is a bit better, but it still feels wors than playing Q18 due to the extra territory black gets in the corner.


"b" seems good to me, looking at the whole board, black seems slightly behind. Though the top still bothers me the bottom is more urgent as it is completely open. I like this the best so far, so I think I will play K16 now, and consider the other possible follow-ups next time.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #13 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:21 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 43
Liked others: 21
Was liked: 6
Rank: KGS 5 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 9 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Three spoilers, Splatted? You're scaring me.

As mentioned, corner territory is not what I'm aiming for, so I'm going to let the situation in the upper right lie and play elsewhere. When white's group next to the corner becomes stronger I may want to go back and secure the corner, but not yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Possible moves
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , b . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . . f . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here are the moves I'm considering.

First; white has 3-4 point that threatens to become an enclosure. a or b would prevent that, but due to the stone on the star point the resulting black group would be a bit cramped. c would theoretically make the enclosure less attractive.

d and e are of course natural approaches. I'm not sure I like them here, as white gets a lot of choice as to what joseki will be played (at least since my selection is limited).

f builds a framework for myself. I'd love to get this move in eventually, but playing it now feels a bit passive.

Approaching the 3-4 point feels like the best way to go. The question is, how? High, low, close, far?

A high approach, obviously, is more oriented towards the center. This is good in a way because I definitely don't want to get hemmed in, giving white lots of influence. However, it seems like I risk getting nothing at all in the way of a base along the side if I do this, perhaps not even splitting white without spending an extra useless move just for that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BcSplit or flee, very bad for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . 6 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 . 5 . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I'll be playing the low approach. What do I expect? With the side midpoint stone in place, the diagonal play looks natural:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . a . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 3 . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I believe white after such a play normally makes a jump out from the corner stone, at a, to avoid being surrounded -- in which case I can obviously easily a base. At my level, however, it's not always easy to understand why this is absolutely necessary. (Which is a fancy way to say I'm not sure I really understand it.) That means I think there's a possibility white might play b instead of a, and that in theory I think this is wrong, but in practice I'm actually much more uncomfortable with it than with the "right" play. If white does play there, I definitely need to respond around a to make use of the point white neglected to defend.

Another possibility is a low pincer, in which case from looking briefly at the joseki for this I believe I can attach under the corner stone and expect a good result; either something in the corner or letting white live in the corner (by sacrificing a stone) and surrounding with a strongish group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BcVarious scarily complex sequences begin like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . 1 . 2 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31: padic vs Splatted
Post #14 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , 3 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I don't know where this idea is coming from, but :w3: is generally bad, because the weakness at 'a' is open from two sides (centre and side).

These are the options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The most common move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc If you need a high move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31 - padic (6k) vs Splatted (6k)
Post #15 Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:32 am 
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Sorry Padic, that wasn't my intention :twisted: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 10 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I was wrong, Black did want to play there, but I still feel this is good for me because Black strengthens white and leaves a weakness in the top right. I may even be able to get sente, which I think will give me quite a good lead

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31 - padic (6k) vs Splatted (6k)
Post #16 Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:02 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 11 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All the other joseki I even sort of know of this situation rely on being able to threaten to surround the pincering stone. I can't really hope to do that because there's another white stone close by it, so instead I must enter the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$WcFeared but expected
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 3 . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it's likely that white will choose to seal me into the corner like this. I'm not quite comfortable with that, but living in the corner is better than nothing. If this happens I will try to keep sente, by deviating from the joseki if necessary (once I can establish unconditional life). If white gets a wall, playing the white-side midpoint becomes more urgent, since this is where white's influence might make a framework. I will probably have to play closer to the 4-4 point than the wall, following the general advice to stay away from strength. I will also have to play very conservatively, knowing that white will have an advantage in any fight if it comes to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31 - padic (6k) vs Splatted (6k)
Post #17 Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 12 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Joseki

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31 - padic (6k) vs Splatted (6k)
Post #18 Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 13 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Phew. I think I undeservedly dodged a bullet there, but then again I might be misjudging the situation, or my opponent might've spotted something nasty coming down the line.

From the joseki lines that I'm reading, white now has a choice: extend to c15, defending the side, or give atari at c18, defending the corner. In either case, I should be taking the other point (which means giving up the 3-3 stone if white ataris). I am comfortable with either option; if white extends I get a base in the corner and possibilities to proceed into the center, and if white ataris they get the corner but totally lose out on the influence they would've gotten from an enclosure. Letting my opponent choose here is fine with me.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31 - padic (6k) vs Splatted (6k)
Post #19 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:47 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 14 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point there is a choice between living in the corner as an extension of my top group, or extending along the right side. Both joseki are shown as diagrams below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 13 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the one I'm going to play, as it works well with the bottom left, and black is quite small between two white groups. I'm suspicious that Padic will tenuki with 4, but I still think this is ok, though I don't like it as much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 13 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the other option, but I don't like it, as black has much more scope for development, and the bottom left stone now looks isolated.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich #31 - padic (6k) vs Splatted (6k)
Post #20 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:13 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 15 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm expecting this to play out "by the book":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$WcJoseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



If white omits 1 or 3 in the diagram above (3 especially), I'll be looking towards a play around those points myself. If it plays out, I'll be stable in the corner and white will have loosely sketched out a lot of potential territory in exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$WcJoseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After that, I have two desires. One: I don't want to get shut in, as that would make the corner group rather useless. Two: I want to get the last side point, as it's a big moyo-building point for both black and white. I'm not sure which to play first, but I think perhaps "urgent before big" applies in favour of a. Perhaps I can play towards the center in another way that more definitely keeps sente, and so get to play b first in any case?

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