124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

emeraldemon · **#121**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . 7 O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#122**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I THINK this lives? If it lives, at this point, I'm probably better off just living than betting harrassed while my opponent makes points solid.

gaius · **#123**

emeraldemon · **#124**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#125**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . 0 . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, I'm hoping to get sente from this for F10 or O4...

emeraldemon · **#126**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 55.8%
Time: 28:15

Another long think, it seems that maybe Fuego thinks longer as we get into the middle game.

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 8 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 0 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 3 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . 7 2 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like the tennuki from the right side, I think maybe the exchange is kikashi for black. As for the sequence, Fuego always thinks Q15 is a little bit away. It's been thinking that since move 45. Otherwise the sequence seems mostly reasonable, this is the first time it's looked at the 33 invasion instead of the 34 attachment.

Moves considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O b . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a e . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a - 27%
b - 22%
c - 13%
d - 12%
e - 8%

I'm a bit surprised how close Fuego came to playing b. It's an interesting fighting move, but why complicate if you feel ahead? One other point: Fuego did spend a tiny (1169) number of playouts on O4, the move Chew's been wanting. The sequence it saw was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 3 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems like an all-or-nothing kind of fight, but maybe black has enough thickness to pull it off?

Mike Novack · **#127**

emeraldemon wrote:

.......I'm a bit surprised how close Fuego came to playing b. It's an interesting fighting move, but why complicate if you feel ahead?........

.......This seems like an all-or-nothing kind of fight, but maybe black has enough thickness to pull it off?.....

We are perhaps looking at one of the major differences between how this algorithm operates and how a human has to play the game.

Complications ....... make it harder for a human who has to keep track of more things, remembering what has been left unfinished and still has potential, etc. The algorithm is analyzing afresh each move. It isn't burdened by keeping in mind "plans". Doesn't work that way. I rather suspect that at least a bit of the overall strength of these programs is that they can afford complications that would burden a human player of approximately the same strength. Nor is it that the program is trying to complicate (as a human player might do if calculating the best chance remaining that the opponent goes astray). It's simply playing the best move it can find to maintain an advantage (or to possibly gain one) whether that's complicated or straightforward. It has no way of judging "this is more complicated than that".

In effect it's good at all out fighting but isn't "thinking" in those terms. If that thickness is enough, then the playouts will result in that fighting move valued as best.

emeraldemon · **#128**

Mike Novack wrote:

We are perhaps looking at one of the major differences between how this algorithm operates and how a human has to play the game.

Complications ....... make it harder for a human who has to keep track of more things, remembering what has been left unfinished and still has potential, etc. The algorithm is analyzing afresh each move. It isn't burdened by keeping in mind "plans". Doesn't work that way. I rather suspect that at least a bit of the overall strength of these programs is that they can afford complications that would burden a human player of approximately the same strength. Nor is it that the program is trying to complicate (as a human player might do if calculating the best chance remaining that the opponent goes astray). It's simply playing the best move it can find to maintain an advantage (or to possibly gain one) whether that's complicated or straightforward. It has no way of judging "this is more complicated than that".

In effect it's good at all out fighting but isn't "thinking" in those terms. If that thickness is enough, then the playouts will result in that fighting move valued as best.

Yes and no. Actually Fuego (and most monte-carlo bots I think) does play more conservatively when it's ahead and more aggressively when it's behind. It's an interesting (and positive) property of the evaluation system. If Fuego is behind (i.e. most "normal" moves lose in playouts), it will start playing complications or attacking moves, because maybe they win occasionally. This can actually be a bit annoying, because when the win % gets very low, it usually plays some ridiculous invasions, cuts that don't work, etc. for maybe 10-15 moves before deciding to resign. But sometimes you mess up in response, and it's back in the game.

On the flip side, It doesn't care about score at all, so if it enters yose up by 10 points, it will play a protective move inside its own space rather than take a 2 point endgame play, because the protection wins more in playouts. Actually much of the time Fuego wins, it wins by 0.5 or 1.5 , because it would rather be sure of a small win than push for a bigger one.

Overall it's a smart strategy, and it's pretty cool that it's an emergent property of the search, and not something that had to be hand coded. However, it can backfire: I played Fuego once in a game where it was ahead, it gave away several endgame moves so it could protect cuts that didn't work, and eventually it had to win a 1-pt ko to win the game. But it had miscalculated somewhere and I won the ko. (This wasn't a slow game like this, it was a blitz 9x9 if I remember correctly.)

Chew Terr · **#129**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 2 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ouch, that is a giant mass of territory. I wonder if I ought to resign here. I can't even do F10 like I wanted, because it can just be cut successfully. At least, it looks like that to my reading now. I'm going to mess around over here, then look into more aggressive stuff to deal with that left side entrance. I kept reading and nothing QUITE worked. However, if I get K5 (which I want anyways), the stuff on the right may just work, as I have a bit more space to run to. As a result, I may even get K5 in sente. That may be a bit optimistic, but a game review I got earlier told me 'Don't just go for the jugular, but try to get your sente moves THREATENING to kill first, and then see if you can kill or not'. So I'm going to try that, to see if I can get any kind of reduction value out of this side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . 9 8 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 6 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X 7 O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 This doesn't work $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . X O O X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 I didn't draw it out to the end, but this doesn't seem to either $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . 7 6 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . 0 X 2 9 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

emeraldemon · **#130**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#131**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . 4 . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, so this threatens either the move I've been eyeing all game (O4) or to move out into the middle fairly quickly. I'm guessing that black will let me connect underneath at P2 now, but it's something.

emeraldemon · **#132**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 5 O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#133**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O 6 8 X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That's fair, but it doesn't remove that much of the purpose of the original hane, so I'll continue in the same vein.

emeraldemon · **#134**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#135**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X 0 . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Right. Because of the atari exchange, I didn't actually really get anything for burning the aji here. Darn. Well, I suppose there's always the brute force method for reduction. Someone tell me, should I resign? I never can tell when games are viable and when it's just over.

flOvermind · **#136**

I wouldn't resign in this position...

Explanation: (not for Chew)

emeraldemon · **#137**

Well, I've already admitted to a slight pro-Fuego bias, so perhaps you shouldn't take my opinion

I will say that in your position, Fuego would not resign.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 58.7% (+1.2%)
Time: 15:17

Fuego didn't have much doubt about this, playing 96% of playouts at that hane. Here's the sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 Sequence part 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 3 . . 6 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X 0 X X O X O 7 . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . 8 O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . O . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Sequence part 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . 7 1 4 5 X X X . . O O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X O X X O X O X . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 8 O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . O O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 9 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Fuego has clearly read a sequence that kills white, at least after getting :b73:

and

. But if so, why isn't the win % higher? Also if I read out this sequence, I would play it right away I think, even ignoring :w70:

(or at least go straight for :b73:

). My guess is that the RAVE can't lift such a long sequence up the tree, so it's being played out at the point it was originally found, a few moves deep.

The question is, will black try to play it later? Will Fuego even find it again? (Remember it looks at each position completely fresh, without memory of past sequences.) Will Chew see what's up and defend? If white has to spend a move in gote to live, I think the game is probably a loss anyway.

Chew Terr · **#138**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . X 2 . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems logical.

emeraldemon · **#139**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . 3 . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 59.1% (+0.4%)
Time: 18:17

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . a . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . c O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a - 77%
b - 14&
c - 2%
d - 1%

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O 5 6 . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . 2 1 4 . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 X O 0 . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O 9 . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fuego missed the ladder it seems :sad:

Chew Terr · **#140**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . 4 3 . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . 5 X O 6 . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I'm closer to the middle than I was...

124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

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