34. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

Kirby · **#361**

Chew Terr wrote:

Certainly not endgame! I was very impressed at how long you kept sente.

...this is all that I am equipped to comment on. Both sides played a high-level game. Thank you for commenting thoroughly, it is helpful to those of us below, even if we don't always know enough to know what questions to ask.

Thank you, Chew Terr. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask.

Kirby · **#362**

unkx80 wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm93 Move 93 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X W | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

edited comment

What is the correct response?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm93 Move 93 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X W | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can consider this move.

Yes, this seems better than the game. It looks pretty obvious now :sad:

Magicwand · **#363**

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm109 Move 109 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . X . X . . . O X X . O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X | $$ | . . W . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What is the correct response to the 3-3 here?

this would be simple? when you have that shpae in the corner dont save it.
it is usually good to playout the sequence below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Move 109 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . X . X . . . O X X . O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . | $$ | . . X . 7 . . . . . . X . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X | $$ | . 3 W 5 . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . 4 6 2 X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#364**

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

i can compare my playing style with chicken game.
two cars facing each others and chicken will fold.
i said you play yours i think my moyo is bigger!
is he going to play chicken and invade?
or he will say what i get over here is big and i am satisfied!

below is the variation i have in mind after he invade and i get sente.
it will build another huge moyo. and he will be even deeper in the snow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Move 28 - Prisoners: B=1, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X 3 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 4 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Magicwand: What should I have played here, after your move?

i would have played '1' it is big.
my moyo is incomplete and full of invasion move but your points are solid.
i was afraid you might play as below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 28 - Prisoners: B=1, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#365**

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

some helpful hint.
do not waste your aji unless you read the move completely.
he waste 4 point sente aji to try something he doesnt even know what he is going to do.
i would feel really bad if i waste that much point on nothing.
there is distinct timing when you play such move.
it has to be perfect timing or you will lose points. same with 3-3 point invasion.
i believe at this point white is ahead by few points. but it will not be easy for me to keep that lead if he plays solid moves till the end. i mean he will have his chance to win the game for sure. when you are not sure i suggest wait till you see a chance.
way he played his invasion seems wrong to me. such play might decide the game very quickly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm32 Move 32 - Prisoners: B=1, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What should I play from here, instead?

i already answered on previous page that taking the aji away by capturing one stone on upper right.

below has big end game...it is not big as it appears to be.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm32 Move 32 - Prisoners: B=1, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . 6 2 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 5 . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · **#366**

Magicwand wrote:

below has big end game...it is not big as it appears to be.

I assume you mean "it is bigger than it appears to be"? Otherwise your clauses seem contradictory.

Kirby · **#367**

Thank you for your comments, Magicwand.

By the way, I noticed that I used the wrong coordinate in one question. I asked if S13 was bigger than approaching the bottom right corner. What I meant was to ask if S15 was bigger.

I felt like doing tenuki, and approaching the bottom right immediately, but S15 helped me to get a large corner. I am not sure what was bigger.

Kirby · **#368**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

below has big end game...it is not big as it appears to be.

I assume you mean "it is bigger than it appears to be"? Otherwise your clauses seem contradictory.

He might mean that the white area is not as big as it appears to be, so I did not need to immediately invade directly like I did.

Kirby · **#369**

I realized that there are a couple of questions from my last game that I haven't gotten responses on.

In particular, I'm curious about these two:

1.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . 9 . 3 1 7 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there a better option than this? I was considering N17 as well. Would it have been better?

2.) In this game, I considered skipping S15 and approaching the bottom right immediately. Is it a better strategy?

Magicwand · **#370**

Kirby wrote:

I realized that there are a couple of questions from my last game that I haven't gotten responses on.

In particular, I'm curious about these two:

1.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . 9 . 3 1 7 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there a better option than this? I was considering N17 as well. Would it have been better?

2.) In this game, I considered skipping S15 and approaching the bottom right immediately. Is it a better strategy?

1) what you played is fine. it is what you played after that might be problem.
2) no way! you can not skip and tenuki. you have to finish joseki.

Kirby · **#371**

Magicwand wrote:

Kirby wrote:

I realized that there are a couple of questions from my last game that I haven't gotten responses on.

In particular, I'm curious about these two:

1.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . 9 . 3 1 7 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there a better option than this? I was considering N17 as well. Would it have been better?

2.) In this game, I considered skipping S15 and approaching the bottom right immediately. Is it a better strategy?

1) what you played is fine. it is what you played after that might be problem.
2) no way! you can not skip and tenuki. you have to finish joseki.

Thanks, Magicwand.

Dusk Eagle · **#372**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 7 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I may be weaker than you but I wouldn't play this way. White gets a lot of territory, and you get to weak groups of stones which will be suject to a full game's worth of attack (if they're not abandoned outright).

Kirby · **#373**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 7 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I may be weaker than you but I wouldn't play this way. White gets a lot of territory, and you get to weak groups of stones which will be suject to a full game's worth of attack (if they're not abandoned outright).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your sequence. Are you suggesting this as an alternative (I don't quite get it, since you said you wouldn't play this way)?

Dusk Eagle · **#374**

Oops, I mislooked at the board and thought you said you wouldn't play R15 when you actually said S15. Still, I wouldn't want white to connect under if I were you. It seems that all your stones in the area lose their primary meaning.

Kirby · **#375**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Oops, I mislooked at the board and thought you said you wouldn't play R15 when you actually said S15. Still, I wouldn't want white to connect under if I were you. It seems that all your stones in the area lose their primary meaning.

Ah, thank you. I see, now.

Yes, I agree with you. I just hate losing sente in games, so I have a strong urge to tenuki, often. But I think that you are correct. It is too big to tenuki.

cyclops · **#376**

Araban wrote:

I just did Chinese counting on this to not worry about prisoners (after filling dame for both sides) and it comes out W+1.5, so it seems Kirby is right.

Japanese counting adds up to the same as is shown in this sgf.

On the board W is ahead by the 5 pts in the LL corner. Add 1/2 komi and deduct 1 prisoner out of the last moves and 3 prisoners from history and the grand total is 1.5 pts in favour of W.

34. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

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