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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:29 am 
Tengen

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It's generally good to capture a stone that's caught in a ladder. There's two reasons. First, when it comes time to play in the upper right, black will be fighting with his hands behind his back if he doesn't capture. Every sequence he reads, he'll have to make sure that there is never any place where white could play an effective ladder breaker. That's hard, but it also means he'll have to back down from a lot of fights. Second, after he captures, Black is thicker. His stones have the start of eyeshape, and it will be fairly hard for White to attack them. If he doesn't capture, White could play a move that's a ladder breaker and use that to start to surround Black.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:36 pm 
Judan

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hyperpape wrote:
It's generally good to capture a stone that's caught in a ladder. There's two reasons. First, when it comes time to play in the upper right, black will be fighting with his hands behind his back if he doesn't capture. Every sequence he reads, he'll have to make sure that there is never any place where white could play an effective ladder breaker. That's hard, but it also means he'll have to back down from a lot of fights. Second, after he captures, Black is thicker. His stones have the start of eyeshape, and it will be fairly hard for White to attack them. If he doesn't capture, White could play a move that's a ladder breaker and use that to start to surround Black.


Those are 2 excellent reasons for capturing stones in ladders, but here there is a 3rd even better reason, it is sente otherwise black plays b4 to capture 2 white stones. A very common mistake (I've even see dan players make it) in this shape is for black to play b6 before d7, which white answers at b4 (and black feels really cool for bossing white around). Then capturing the ladder stone is still a good move for the 2 reasons above, but it is no longer sente.


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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #23 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this kind of area is definitely the biggest of the board. My thickness works well with this approach, and any kind of white pincer is going to be in a lot of trouble I expect (more so since I'm approaching from a bit of a distance).

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #24 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:46 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think white is in a bad position. I will have to do something to reduce black, but it'll be hard.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #25 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:54 am 
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[go]$$Bcm1 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is good influence overall, although it's not territory, but Black's stones on the left and right seem to be strategically in sync. I might have preferred that the approach were one space higher so it feels less overconcentrated (given how the left has a weakness) but it's still okay.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #26 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:06 am 
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Feel free to accept or reject the trigger :) .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like how this thickness is working out, and given that I played dual 4-4s, I think my overall board position works quite well together.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #27 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:20 am 
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[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is doing well. I must be patient. If he secures a base for his stones, I will take sente to try something in another part of the board and come back to reduce later. If he jumps, trying to increase his framework, it is likely that I will come on in. Not sure where is best, but somewhere along the outer line in the middle seems interesting. reduce it from there. Retaining the weakness of black being undercut, I'm hoping black center territory won't turn out to be terribly big, otherwise white is in trouble. P.S, I suck at this type of game and I hate them aswell;)

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #28 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:41 pm 
Judan

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@Simba & obs
Is there a reason you played the 2-space high approach at d14, which is a somewhat unusual approach, rather than the more normal d15?

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I kind of instinctively feel this move is wrong for black, but I'm not entirely sure why (perhaps it's simply too slow), and would like to learn why, so I'll play it :) . First instinct was G14 for what it's worth, but this seems to be countered quite effectively by H10, after which I'm not only reduced but also have the open skirt at B6. Don't like it. Would be interested to hear where dan players would play here, as I often come into spots like this in my games and I'm often not entirely sure where the vital points to build the central areas are.


Uberdude wrote:
@Simba & obs
Is there a reason you played the 2-space high approach at d14, which is a somewhat unusual approach, rather than the more normal d15?


Yeah - basically my thoughts were that it makes it a lot easier for a pincer stone to make something of itself if I approach from one space away. He has a choice of pincers from a one-space high approach all of which have an extra line to make some kind of sabaki invasion in. And if white pincered then lived in my area on the left in any kind of decent way, I could end up with very few points there. It seemed like it would be too easy for white to do that. I would get some thickness on the outside as compensation no doubt, but it's not immediately obvious how that would be used. White could one-space low pincer my two space high approach, but that is pretty cramped even if it did manage to get a two-space extension. I figure it's fine enough to take the cash I've been offered rather than gamble for more and lose it. I feel I'm a bit ahead here, so I'm happy enough.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #30 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:53 am 
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I would have played a framwork building move as B now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . a . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel uneasy for W here... Espeacially because B might get 'a' later.

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Post #31 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:15 am 
Honinbo
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Simba wrote:
I kind of instinctively feel this move is wrong for black, but I'm not entirely sure why (perhaps it's simply too slow)
Indeed :b25: is too slow, too small.

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Post #32 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:35 am 
Honinbo
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For Simba, after the game,
( For beginners. My emphases. )
Simba wrote:
it makes it a lot easier for a pincer stone to make something of itself if I approach from one space away. He has a choice of pincers ... to make some kind of sabaki invasion in. And if white pincered then lived in my area on the left..., I could end up with very few points there. ... I would get some thickness on the outside as compensation... but it's not immediately obvious how that would be used.
Very honest and accurate reply by Simba. :clap:
It shows some common (?) misunderstanding and fear at these levels: Simba wants to use his powerful :b17: ponnuki
to make territory directly, and this also explains why he played :b25: (which is too slow).
IF B were able to turn the left side into territory with only one more move, it would be very efficient;
but as yithril pointed out, it's not territory yet (even after :b25:).

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #33 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not sure what his plan was with the endgame move of 25, but this attack will let me take control of the game (I hope). I think I should get a favourable result from this even if he gets sente to follow up his endgame move. He might have thought it was sente, or that the three stones were strong enough because of blacks strong position in the lower left. However, in my mind these 3 stones present a nice target for attack. I considered playing a kakari probe on the upper right corner before attacking, but I feel that he could ignore it, so let's start the fun!

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #34 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:24 am 
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Oo. Interesting move, but feels jealous - not sure who is being attacked here after black responds (perhaps G14?). Personally I'd just O17.

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Post #35 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:54 pm 
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In my oppinnion W is asking to be attacked here. This seems far to close to B's strength. F12 or E11 jump to my mind without thinking to much about the consequences. G14 might be nice as well

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Post #36 Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:53 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Time to kill. That looks way too deep. I was expecting he'd play something like F10.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #37 Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:56 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This could turn out so many different ways, but If he plays hane on top I will clamp. If he cuts the stone off and captures, I will gladly sacrifice and gain strength. Let's see what he has in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking
Post #38 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:10 am 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this move is nice and solid. First instinct was to hane on top of his 28, but I'd really need to fix the aji around F13 with another move potentially - getting separated would be kind of sucky. This doesn't give white any cool sabaki cross-cutty/counter-hane type options either. I think white went too deep and I'm definitely looking to attack very severely here.

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