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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #21 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:36 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 7 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the fight starts. I hope to get some strength to reduce the left. I'm not sure about the continuation, but everything I read out is okay for me. The worst I find is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Dia.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . X W . 3 . X b . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O 4 O 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 2 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . a . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I have good moves at 'a' and 'b', but I'm ready to sacrifiece the :wc: stones to play 'c'
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:42 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 7 8 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm17 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 7 5 . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O 4 1 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 8 X 3 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aiming for a in the future. I'll happily exchange some of the top for some outside thickness here. I've played for influence on the left so a wall facing down is nice I think. I know things are a bit strange with me going for territory on the right but 4 stone is weird and I'm pursuing a strategy of two solid corners + moyo. I've no idea if this works or not.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #23 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:26 am 
Tengen

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Boidhre, please read later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm17 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 7 5 . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X c O 4 1 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . d 6 8 X 3 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That's not thickness. The four stones aren't 100% heavy, but they're not thick. White can't yet play at c or d, until he addresses the two black cutting stones, but once he does, he can play against those three black stones.

_________________
Occupy Babel!
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:49 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 9 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this cut is a must be. Let's see what he does now.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:52 am 
Honinbo
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Celebrir wrote:
I think this cut is a must be.
For beginners: yes, of course :w19: is forced. Otherwise the following broken shape result is impossible for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm19 :w19: tenuki
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 2 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:59 am 
Honinbo
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Boidhre, for later:
About your variation: on an even more basic level, :b24: ends in gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm17
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 7 5 . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O 4 1 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 8 X 3 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #27 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:43 am 
Oza

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[go]$$Wcm19 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O 2 O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 1 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As before.
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #28 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:15 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 1 . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again not much to say. This seems to be quite a forced move.
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:20 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 1 . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sticking with the plan.
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #30 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a little trick to make things more complex. I don't want to play the atari to conect my stones because it gives me less possibilities but I still want to protect the cut. This move does that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 X O 1 O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 6 O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 X 3 X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If this happens I hope to have two groups I can attack.
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #31 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:45 pm 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Very unsure about this move, but I think it's forcing and I think it strengthens me on the left.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #32 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:53 pm 
Honinbo
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Very unsure about this move, but I think it's forcing and I think it strengthens me on the left.
How is it forcing? Could you show your variations. :)
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #33 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:08 pm 
Oza

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EdLee wrote:
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Very unsure about this move, but I think it's forcing and I think it strengthens me on the left.
How is it forcing? Could you show your variations. :)

Ed,

W plays elsewhere:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #34 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
W plays elsewhere:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Yes... how does this make :b24: forcing? (In other words, for :b24: to be forcing,
W has to suffer some huge damage after :w25: tenuki -- could you show the damage?)
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #35 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:29 am 
Lives in gote
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Rank: German 1k
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Universal go server handle: Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X 5 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he doesn't want to fight and fears his weakness, I'll just take the profit.
Besides something like this might become intresting soon:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21 Dia. 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X 4 X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #36 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:12 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
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Universal go server handle: Boidhre
EdLee wrote:
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
W plays elsewhere:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Yes... how does this make :b24: forcing? (In other words, for :b24: to be forcing,
W has to suffer some huge damage after :w25: tenuki -- could you show the damage?)


Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage. If it's huge damage it's not forcing as White can afford to give up those two stones to secure the rest of the top.
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Post #37 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:15 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . X 5 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I have to take the trade. It's a poor trade for me, I see that now but I'm unsure if I could have saved those cutting stones anyway. Perhaps I should have tried to though.

This makes miai of a and b:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X a 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O b O . X 5 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #38 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:13 am 
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage. If it's huge damage it's not forcing as White can afford to give up those two stones to secure the rest of the top.
That's what "forcing" means -- that W MUST reply. If W does not have to reply, then how is it "forcing" ? :)
For Boidhre, but after this fight is finished,
Besides, W does not have to give up anything, because W (b) is sente -- from your post about (a) and (b) being miai:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 a 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O b O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #39 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:15 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
EdLee wrote:
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage. If it's huge damage it's not forcing as White can afford to give up those two stones to secure the rest of the top.
That's what "forcing" means -- that W MUST reply. If W does not have to reply, then how is it "forcing" ? :)
Besides, W does not have to give up anything, because W (b) is sente -- from your post about (a) and (b) being miai:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 a 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O b O . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


You're quite correct Ed, I'm exactly sure what I was thinking! :)
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #40 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:27 am 
Honinbo
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage.
Here's another way to think about it: every of your :black: moves, unless you're killing yourself like self-atari, or filling in a neutral point (pass),
as long as it's taking even 0.5 points of territory on the board, it's doing "some" damage to :white: --
if this were the entire meaning of "forcing," then practically every :black: move would be forcing.
Clearly, this is not the case.
"Forcing" means your opponent MUST reply, or Game Over for him -- this is the only possible meaning.

Having said that, just because a move is forcing does not necessarily mean it's good!
It can be a BAD forcing move -- yes, your opponent must reply, but he is happy to do it! --
because the result hurts you or helps him!
Distinguishing good sente moves from bad ones is another very deep topic. :mrgreen:

This post by EdLee was liked by: Boidhre
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