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 Post subject: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #1 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:18 pm 
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The early rays of the Sun made the shallow glitter. A calm breeze from the ocean warmed the air. The day was perfect for an honorable death.

The challenger--a young but fearless warrior--was the first one to set foot on the island. He was anxious but prepared for what was to come. The other warrior--a renowned and much-beloved veteran of many battles--arrived on the island shortly thereafter. He was clam by contrast.

There was no animosity, no disagreement between the fighters. Under different circumstances, they would gladly fight shoulder to shoulder against a common foe. However, it was time for them to test their deadly mastery of the long blade against each other and determine who the better swordsman was.

With swords, it is the footwork, the strategy, and the finesse that make the difference in a duel. While a sudden and violent end to combat can occur at any time, it is the accumulation of small wounds that often determines the result.

Thus, with the breeze giving them courage and with the sunlight igniting fire in their eyes, the warriors drew their swords. Two boats sailed to the island, but only one was destined to sail back.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[Rules: Japanese, 6.5 komi, open book and databases; also, I've agreed not to ask Lee Sedol for help during the game.]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.


Last edited by The Intrepid on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by The Intrepid was liked by 2 people: illluck, Unusedname
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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #2 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Post #3 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:05 am 
Judan
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The Intrepid, thanks.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
A few years ago, I think it was January 2008, at the Toyota-Denso tourney at UCLA (when Toyota was still sponsoring Go tourneys, sigh :sad:),
I was relaying board 1. I don't remember whether Mr. Mingjiu Jiang 7p took B or W, but he played 3-3 early in the opening,
perhaps :w2: or :b3:. I thought it was very interesting. Maybe others more resourceful can look up that game. :)

Recently, my life has been turned a bit upside down due to a huge multi-month project --
I'm still only in the early stages of it -- so in the past month or so I had no time,
energy, or focus to play serious Go. For example, I had big lags in many moves
in the other Malkovich game recently. I can breathe a little now.

Unlike The Intrepid, I have made zero preparation for this. Just one move at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #4 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:26 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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Post #5 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:21 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #6 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:35 am 
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I've edited the story line in the first post. The comments regarding preparation, strategy, and the moves already made are still to come.

Here's to an epic game, EdLee. Good luck and have fun!

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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Post #7 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:47 am 
Judan
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Thanks, you too.
It's not often I face a 3-3 opening, so this already is interesting for me. :)

For beginners. If you have any questions about the moves, please feel free to ask.
I'll try my best to answer them.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #8 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:44 am 
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Preparation:
The opponent:

EdLee played 5 games on this website. These games tell an interesting story:

#103 EdLee vs. topazg: After an opening that seems all right for both sides, topazg played a bit carelessly with his group on the left. The group fell under attack in the early middlegame, and EdLee was able to gain a substantial advantage. However, in the late middlegame topzag successfully invaded EdLee's territory, making the game close again. Then, just as the game entered the endgame stage, topazg resigned for him for no apparent reason in a position that was perhaps only slightly disadvantageous for him. :scratch:

#126: EdLee vs. Loons: After another reasonable opening, EdLee made several questionable moves in the early middlegame. With this, Loons got a big advantage. However, EdLee was able to find a good opportunity to substantially reduce Loons' moyo in the center, making the game close. Then, as the endgame commenced, in a playable and possibly even slightly advantageous position, EdLee resigned out of the blue. :scratch:

#166: EdLee vs. Celebrir: The opening stage brought EdLee the advantage. Then, Celebrir made a clumsy invasion on the right, and his invading group fell under attack. Then, with plenty of play left in the position, Celebrir just vanished, never to be seen again. :scratch:

#169: blindgod vs. EdLee: After playing surprisingly well in the opening, blindgod--a 16kyu at the time--got into some trouble in the fighting on top. Then, in a position that still seems perfectly playable, blindgod simply resigned, citing personal reasons. :scratch:

#165: LexC vs. EdLee (currently in progress) (not for LexC until his game against EdLee finishes):
Following a very promising opening for LexC, LexC failed to put to use the massive influence in the center he was able to acquire. As a result, the game became close as the endgame commenced. In the endgame, EdLee (so far) played better moves, putting himself in the lead by at least 10+ points, as far as I can tell.
My prediction for how this game will proceed from here: the players will make a few more moves but then--for no reason whatsoever--EdLee will resign in accordance with the trend. :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: (Just kidding ... or am I? :?: )

My assessment based on the above games is that EdLee is a formidable, well-rounded player who does not have any glaring weaknesses. Given the limited sample size, I could not establish any strong reads on EdLee's play. He is capable of making mistakes during any stage of the game but he can be expected to maintain a high level of play throughout the match. Defeating him will be difficult for sure.


Strategy:
First of all, if I end up in a disadvantageous position, I will fight on to the bitter end. As long as there is a chance for me to continue the resistance, I will use it. If I end up resigning, there will be no head-scratching as to the reason why.

Next, as implied in the introduction to the game where I talk about finesse and so on, my intended strategy for this game is to start out in a relatively peaceful mode. If an opportunity presents itself to initiate a favorable fight, I will take it. However, by and large, I will seek to avoid unnecessary complications. In line with this, I will favor territory over influence, safe and settled positions over running battles, and so on.

Naturally, the 3-3 stone is the most "peaceful" move one can start the game with. I actually like this move--at least in principle. In practice, I have not had much experience with it. Moreover, there is not much literature about the move. Cho Chikun wrote a book on it, but I don't have it. I'll try to apply my general opening knowledge to handle the stone as appropriate.

As for the fuseki I intend to play, I wish to try out playing one of the marked points next:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . a b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This treatment of the position might be a bit slow. Approaching one of White's stones next is likely better. A brief glance at the pro-games database seems to confirm this view since I could not find any professional games where Black (or White) would play either a, b, c, or d right away. (However, I should note that I currently have access only to the sharewere version of MasterGo, so my database might be vastly incomplete.) However, I have some ideas in the position. I'll write about these ideas as the game progresses.

Before I choose my next move, I need to first refresh my memory regarding the various josekis after the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . a b . . . . f , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Obviously, I don't want :b5: to be too close to the wall I expect to get on the right. At the same time, I don't want the stone to be too far away, either, else White might have an easy invasion in the area. By the way, I do expect EdLee to approach my 3-4 stone at :w1: rather than at "e" (in which case I would consider responding at "f"). That is so because EdLee stated in one of his comments elsewhere that he likes and has had success with :w1:.

A related question is whether I should place :b5: on the 3rd or the 4th line. Placing it on the 3rd line would mean that all of my initial stones are low, which could hinder my efforts to develop a large moyo on the bottom. Moreover, a stone on the 3rd line lends itself to all sort of reducing moves such as the following
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . f , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

On the other hand, a stone on the fourth line would allow EdLee a greater chance at a successful invasion underneath the stone. Therefore, I think I have a difficult and very important decision to make right now.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.


This post by The Intrepid was liked by: Unusedname
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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #9 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:54 pm 
Lives in gote
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The Intrepid wrote:
Preparation:
[hide]The opponent:

EdLee played 5 games on this website. These games tell an interesting story:

#103 EdLee vs. topazg: After an opening that seems all right for both sides, topazg played a bit carelessly with his group on the left. The group fell under attack in the early middlegame, and EdLee was able to gain a substantial advantage. However, in the late middlegame topzag successfully invaded EdLee's territory, making the game close again. Then, just as the game entered the endgame stage, topazg resigned for him for no apparent reason in a position that was perhaps only slightly disadvantageous for him. :scratch:

#126: EdLee vs. Loons: After another reasonable opening, EdLee made several questionable moves in the early middlegame. With this, Loons got a big advantage. However, EdLee was able to find a good opportunity to substantially reduce Loons' moyo in the center, making the game close. Then, as the endgame commenced, in a playable and possibly even slightly advantageous position, EdLee resigned out of the blue. :scratch:

#166: EdLee vs. Celebrir: The opening stage brought EdLee the advantage. Then, Celebrir made a clumsy invasion on the right, and his invading group fell under attack. Then, with plenty of play left in the position, Celebrir just vanished, never to be seen again. :scratch:

#169: blindgod vs. EdLee: After playing surprisingly well in the opening, blindgod--a 16kyu at the time--got into some trouble in the fighting on top. Then, in a position that still seems perfectly playable, blindgod simply resigned, citing personal reasons. :scratch:

#165: LexC vs. EdLee (currently in progress) (not for LexC until his game against EdLee finishes):
Following a very promising opening for LexC, LexC failed to put to use the massive influence in the center he was able to acquire. As a result, the game became close as the endgame commenced. In the endgame, EdLee (so far) played better moves, putting himself in the lead by at least 10+ points, as far as I can tell.
My prediction for how this game will proceed from here: the players will make a few more moves but then--for no reason whatsoever--EdLee will resign in accordance with the trend. :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: (Just kidding ... or am I? :?: )

My assessment based on the above games is that EdLee is a formidable, well-rounded player who does not have any glaring weaknesses. Given the limited sample size, I could not establish any strong reads on EdLee's play. He is capable of making mistakes during any stage of the game but he can be expected to maintain a high level of play throughout the match. Defeating him will be difficult for sure.


Strategy:
First of all, if I end up in a disadvantageous position, I will fight on to the bitter end. As long as there is a chance for me to continue the resistance, I will use it. If I end up resigning, there will be no head-scratching as to the reason why.

Next, as implied in the introduction to the game where I talk about finesse and so on, my intended strategy for this game is to start out in a relatively peaceful mode. If an opportunity presents itself to initiate a favorable fight, I will take it. However, by and large, I will seek to avoid unnecessary complications. In line with this, I will favor territory over influence, safe and settled positions over running battles, and so on.

Naturally, the 3-3 stone is the most "peaceful" move one can start the game with. I actually like this move--at least in principle. In practice, I have not had much experience with it. Moreover, there is not much literature about the move. Cho Chikun wrote a book on it, but I don't have it. I'll try to apply my general opening knowledge to handle the stone as appropriate.

As for the fuseki I intend to play, I wish to try out playing one of the marked points next:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . a b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This treatment of the position might be a bit slow. Approaching one of White's stones next is likely better. A brief glance at the pro-games database seems to confirm this view since I could not find any professional games where Black (or White) would play either a, b, c, or d right away. (However, I should note that I currently have access only to the sharewere version of MasterGo, so my database might be vastly incomplete.) However, I have some ideas in the position. I'll write about these ideas as the game progresses.

Before I choose my next move, I need to first refresh my memory regarding the various josekis after the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . a b . . . . f , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Obviously, I don't want :b5: to be too close to the wall I expect to get on the right. At the same time, I don't want the stone to be too far away, either, else White might have an easy invasion in the area. By the way, I do expect EdLee to approach my 3-4 stone at :w1: rather than at "e" (in which case I would consider responding at "f"). That is so because EdLee stated in one of his comments elsewhere that he likes and has had success with :w1:.

A related question is whether I should place :b5: on the 3rd or the 4th line. Placing it on the 3rd line would mean that all of my initial stones are low, which could hinder my efforts to develop a large moyo on the bottom. Moreover, a stone on the 3rd line lends itself to all sort of reducing moves such as the following
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . f , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

On the other hand, a stone on the fourth line would allow EdLee a greater chance at a successful invasion underneath the stone. Therefore, I think I have a difficult and very important decision to make right now.


Not for players.
Is he really considering playing another third line stone on the bottom?

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Post #10 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:26 pm 
Judan
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For beginners. Some idle thoughts for :b5:: approach ( :ex:), shimari ( :et:), or neighborhood of ( :es:).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . M . . . . . . . M . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T T . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . S , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #11 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:29 pm 
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cdybeijing wrote:
Not for players.
Is he really considering playing another third line stone on the bottom?

It doesn't seem good to me if he does that and I think it would be the general consensus that his position is too low at that point.

I don't know if The Intrepid has read it but there is actually a section in Modern Joseki and Fuseki volume 1 about the san-san komoku opening that he played.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #12 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:31 pm 
Oza

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cdybeijing wrote:

Not for players.
Is he really considering playing another third line stone on the bottom?


I'm a bit surprised too. 3-3 is not a stone to build a moyo with, generally. My first impression is that he should make a corner enclosure, since white would love to approach there.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #13 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
After getting access to a larger pro-game database and after familiarizing myself with relevant pro games, I got to say: the Black-3-3-plus-3-4 combo is potent stuff! Even Iyama Yuuta successfully deployed it in at least one of his games!

Following :w4:, some professionals have played :b5: as an approach move toward one of the two White's 4-4 stones. However, the vast majority of professional games continued with Black forming a shimari and with White subsequently breaking up Black's moyo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
However, as I already explained earlier, I want to try a fuseki where I am the one who plays in between Black's stones.

As far as where to play, I mentioned I was thinking about the following four points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . a b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
From what I could gather with regard to how professionals treat this kind of a position, it is possible to play on either the 3rd line or the 4th line. I decided to play on the 3rd line in accordance with my strategy for this game to preferentially choose territory over influence.

As far as whether to play "c" or "d," I am mightily conflicted about this choice. Point "c" is certainly the greedier alternative as can be seen in many variations such as the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . B d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Clearly, :bc: stakes claim to larger territory than a Black stone at "d" would.

However, there is a significant problem with "c" as compared to "d." In particular, there is the following weak point which White could later try to utilize:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X d 1 . . e . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Here White threatens to make a two-space extension to "e." Notice that if the Black stone where at "d," White would not have the possibility to threaten the two-space extension:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c X . 1 . e . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Now, "e" is just a one-space extension, so White would be difficult to handle.

If Black defends against "e", White may next play one of the following points, potentially wrecking havoc in the lower left area:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . i j , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . g h X . 1 . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
That said, Black has a 3-3 stone in the bottom left corner (which means that the stone can take a lot of abuse without dying), so maybe there is no need for Black to be overly concerned with the possibility of White carrying out such an invasion. Let's see if EdLee reaches a different conclusion. :)

Finally, I should note that if EdLee approaches my 3-4 stone from the left rather than from the top, I'll be happy to make a shimari (unless I find a good way to attack the offending White stone).

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Post #14 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:33 pm 
Judan
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For beginners. Well, so far it's :white: high (4th line) versus :black: low (3rd line, mostly).
All of B's stones are on the 3rd line, except for :b3: with one side on the 4th.

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Post #15 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:36 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Pretty sure this is still within The Intrepid's pre-game preparation. :)
And I'm 99.9% sure this is the first time ever I've played this board.
Maybe he prepared the Magic Sword with :bc: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #16 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:18 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
EdLee made the high kakari and not the low one, just as I expected him to. My preparation is paying dividends! :D Of course, I do not know which of the two choices was stronger. In fact, it is entirely possible that the high kakari is objectively better. We'd need to ask a professional about this. However, I personally would have played the low kakari, expecting the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Is this better than what will happen in the game? Time will tell.

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Post #17 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:26 am 
Judan
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For beginners. First feeling is the very natural hane-block :wc: (but it's not the only local joseki move):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Because of recent adventures, all my Go books, including Ishida and Takao, are buried in a box somewhere.
(Not as bad as the final scene in Indiana Jones, though.) I'll have to find that box... tomorrow. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #18 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:02 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
In addition to :w8:, EdLee could have considered one of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Either of these choices could have led to massive complications.

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Post #19 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:16 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Joseki move, I think.

(After I already played :w10:, I found my Ishida and Takao, and found out :w10: is not the only joseki move here.)

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #20 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:25 am 
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Here I'll need to think for a while. I have many choices, including these:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Edit:
I should add that EdLee could have considered playing this, as well:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 4 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Incidentally, the following would be a mistake for Black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b3: = tenuki
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X . 4 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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