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Post #181 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:39 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Wow, chess tourney! Exciting. How did you do? Too bad you cannot post your chess games here... or, can you?
Can this forum support chess SGF files??? :)
I played quite well. I would have likely taken first had I not missed a simple tactic in a won position in game 3, losing on the spot. As for posting my chess games, only once SGF files become SGCF files ... or once I start reliably beating 2300 players (I am around 2200 currently, which is like 4/5 dan ;), so I still have some ways to go).

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #182 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm63
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Let's see how this move works out. It's very complicated everywhere.

I'm probably going to review the game briefly in the near future. I improved about 3 to 4 stones since I started playing this game last year, so I'll probably discover many mistakes on my part.

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Post #183 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:00 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm64
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O B 1 O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #184 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:02 am 
Judan
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Not sure; thought B would extend first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 1 O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #185 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:23 am 
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Wow, EdLee takes the stone! What about his 4-4 and 4-5 stones? I better make sure I'm not missing something trivial.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I should probably say what the purpose of my last move was. First of all, it threatens the two white sones (which EdLee chose not to defend, for some reason). However, the real meaning of the move is to enable me to pull out the ataried stone at G7. I believe my position would have collapsed had I pulled out the stone right away (I mentioned this briefly previously):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O 3 . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 1 O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 2 . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Black is in the midst of a splitting attack. Either the three Black cutting stones or the three Black stones to the left are going to die, as far as I can see. In the very least, I had no success finding a satisfactory outcome starting from this diagram.

The move in the game seeks to improve upon this. An illustrative variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O 4 . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 7 O X 2 O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 O 3 . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
White's cutting stones get captured in a ladder.

Now let's see if I can figure out what EdLee's plan is for saving his 4-4, 4-5 stones. Does he plan to simply sacrifice them?

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #186 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm65 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Either EdLee sees a sure way to make the two isolated stones live (which I do not) or, else, he wants to separate two of my stones, to kill them, somehow, and to make some territory in the middle:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . B O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
We'll see.

I also considered this sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , 4 . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This attack looks enticing, but I'm not convinced that I can convert this attack into too many points (there are strong White groups above and below, making it hard to make territory in the center). Hence the move in the game.

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Post #187 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:16 pm 
Judan
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For this kosumi, one candidate was :w1:. Will think about it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 1 . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #188 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:43 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm66 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 1 . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #189 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:08 pm 
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With these two stones captured (assuming that they are indeed captured), I should be ahead now. However, I have to be very precise in how I defend White's threats. As a general rule, defending is much more difficult than attacking is. If one makes a mistake in attack, the assault ends. If one makes a mistake in defense, the game ends. As such, I'll take some time here to read variations very carefully. Moves "a," "b," and "c" are the obvious choices to consider--and I'll ponder them first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X b . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O a . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . c X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, it might be possible that I can tenuki here and still have the two stones captured.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
If I can play this, and get away with it, that'll be huge. Let's see if it works. :study:

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #190 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:28 pm 
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It looks like I have to play as follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 1 X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Next, White has a choice of two moves which are critical to the evaluation of the position and both of which are met by the same response from Black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, I got to read some more. :study: :study: :study:

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #191 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:00 pm 
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Rank: IGS 2 dan
I really don't agree with The Intrepid's comment about defense being, in general, more difficult than attack. The problem with his idea is that the stakes are not typically as absolute as he makes them sound. Often a failed attack leads to making little or no profit (or worse weakening one's own position) and strengthening the opponent unnecessarily. Captured or surrounded stones, presuming they are not overwhelmingly large, often still have lots of use and can be sacrificed in a benefical way.

The general rule should be: it is much easier to make a group live than to kill a group.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #192 Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:36 pm 
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I'm sorry for taking a long time on my move (again). I am trying to read out some variations in this position, and failing miserably at it. Hopefully cdybeijing's post provides a detailed and definitive answer as to how to play here. In fact, hopefully more players who calculate quickly and accurately, such as drmwc (hint, hint ;) ), weigh in on the subject. Plus, I'm trying to commit to memory the finer points of Caro-Kann (a chess opening) in preparation for a tournament next week. So, what I'm trying to say is that, although I hope to make a move by the end of the week, I offer no guarantees toward this end.
In my last post, I showed this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 . . 1 X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Continuing the analysis, White can extricate his stones by descending, which threatens to kill Black's corner with "a" and connect out with "b":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . a O O . b O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, perhaps the consequences of this are not at all bad:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O 4 2 O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . 3 X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Provided the marked White stone is captured, Black gets many points along the left side in this variation.
:study: :study: :study: :study: :study:

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #193 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:43 am 
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As requested...

Interesting position!

Suppose B goes all out to capture the W bits.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 3 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 1 . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 2 . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Something like 2 above looks plausible. Black is very thin, though, and white may have very some very strong replies.

White may sacrifice in reply. For example, 3 to 7 cut off some central bits. However, B gets sente to play at 8, which is very big.

Next:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . X 3 . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 1 2 O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 8 X 5 X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


W has good yose like the sequence above. I think this means white's ahead.

Also, going back to the start, thi may be fun for white:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 7 6 . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B 5 . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 4 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 1 . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 2 . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This makes the marked stone weak whilst aiming at saving the white bits. There are many, many branches in the resulting fight but it looks plausible for white.

Hence I believe going for the kill is an overplay. SO I may play this:



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O 7 . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 1 . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X 3 . a 5 X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]



Black 2 is thick. White 3 then threatens the corner. Black 4 is the easiest response to read out, but hectic variations are possible here - I don't know if they should work or not.

4 should be sente - it threatens a next. So white may well protect somewehere (although it's conceivable for white to play at 6 above now - it s huge move so this may be an improvement for white).

Then black can attack the marked stone. Unlike the Intrepid's variation, I think white should play on a big as scale as possible. The atari at 6 seems to be the move.

If I were playing, I would try counting the game under the assumption white sacrifices the marked stone in this line. If white needs to save the stone, black clearly has good winnning chances.

I don't enjoy counting, though, so I'll leave the count as an exercise for the interested reader....


This post by drmwc was liked by: The Intrepid
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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #194 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:04 am 
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Ha! I did succeed in strong-arming you to post. ;) Incidentally, I came back from the chess tournament a few days ago. I went undefeated and made $7,000. Not bad.

I should make a move in this game over the weekend. Then I got another chess tournament 10 days from now. Summer's busy. :)

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This post by The Intrepid was liked by: Unusedname
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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #195 Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm67 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 1 X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I spent some time trying to understand whether I can get away with the move in the game--which is greedier--or whether I have to cut off the two White stones more forcefully with :b1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 1 . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Thankfully, it looks like I can be greedy.

As for what White will play next, he has many options. Perhaps he should simply let the two White stones die in exchange for cutting off some of my stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm2
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . B O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #196 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:51 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm68 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 1 O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #197 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm69 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 1 O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
We're about to find out whether or not I missed a move or misjudged the resulting position. White can play any of the following moves, but I should be fine in all these cases.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm67
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a b O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . c O O X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X d . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #198 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:10 pm 
Judan
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Candidates: (a), (b), or elsewhere.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm68 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O B O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . a X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #199 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:43 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm70 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #200 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm71 :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . O O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This move is forced. The two White stones are now definitely captured. White will try to get compensation by building a moyo in the center. The compensation should prove insufficient.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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