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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #41 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:11 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 X 8 X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So mainly he says by his move: I want to wedge your stones.
I thought about fixing that with nobi to the left at B7 but my shape gets hurt.
I thought about D8 but it removes all kinds of fun aji.

So instead I'll just make an overplay I think I can get an ok result out if he reads correct :-)
I will get a good result if he reads bad.

Lets see.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #42 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:16 am 
Judan

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This game has disintegrated into nonsense.

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Post #43 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:23 am 
Honinbo
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Annihilist wrote:
This is what I read.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 7 X . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . O 9 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------------[/go]
For beginners. The above variation is strange.
After the :b17:- :w18: exchange, the natural follow up is hane :b1: and connect :b3::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 3 . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 O , . . . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------------[/go]
If B wants to attach with :bc:, he could do it directly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . O B . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------------[/go]

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Post #44 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:25 am 
Honinbo
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Uberdude wrote:
This game has disintegrated into nonsense.
For beginners. Yes, locally, the shapes are quite strange, for both B and W.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #45 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:16 pm 
Gosei
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This wedge probably won't end well for white. Wedges, as a general principle, only tend to work when you are really strong on both sides.

_________________
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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #46 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:51 pm 
Lives with ko
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Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: Annihilist
IGS: Annihilist
DGS: Ubermensch
Kaya handle: Annihilist
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 8 X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


One thing I've learned from this game is how much your "reading" can just be going through a sequence which you wish would happen. This move was a surprise.

I don't really want to capture his :w8: stone, so my hope is he connects. Then I can nobi towards the bottom and his two 3-4 stones look a little sad. So I would attack them while trying to escape along the bottom side and settle my group there.

I will probably nobi no matter what he does, leaving his one stone in atari in case it becomes useful. Unless he tries to extend along the bottom. In which case I'll make escaping my priority and push out the right side.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #47 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:57 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 8 X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Obvious response. Corner needs to be blocked, wedge is aji for shape on both sides.
Howhever I realize now that probably this all was not really a good sequence for white.

Its not over yet though...

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Post #48 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:15 am 
Honinbo
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otenki wrote:
Obvious response. Corner needs to be blocked, wedge is aji for shape on both sides.
For beginners. This is ridiculous. The wedge :wc: was bad, but letting B ponnuki IN SENTE is worse.
The only move is to connect with :w1: (even if the result is bad for W; that's because of earlier mistakes by W).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X W X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #49 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:56 pm 
Lives with ko
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Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: Annihilist
IGS: Annihilist
DGS: Ubermensch
Kaya handle: Annihilist
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Kind of expected, but the more I think about it, the more dire this situation is.

I was going to push:out and aim for a result like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 X 1 7 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 2 6 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Resulting in an extremely heavy eyeless group, but still ways to escape, and if I manage to his groups are split.

But I can't read that far. The last thing I want is to add more to a dead group, or a group I'm not sure can live in the long term. So tenuki.

The shimari seems like the best move. It more-or-less secures this corner, and he has to fight harder to get it. Next I'll move to the lower right, depending on his move. Unless he spends a move trying to kill my lower left group, I still have the same aji there so I'll leave it for later. I expect maybe an attack on my left group or an attempt to save his upper corner stone. I think I can deal with either.

I shimari'd on this side because I'm stronger up top, and should lend a little to the right.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #50 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:35 pm 
Lives in gote

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When trying to save a group, you can try to run, you can try to live, but you can also try to fight. The three marked White stones are incredibly weak. No need to run when you can capture your opponent's stones (by playing at "a" instead of :b27:, for example).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Annihilist's diagram + emphasis on weak White stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . W a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 X 1 7 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 2 6 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #51 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:36 am 
Honinbo
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For beginners. :b21: tenuki is strange. Capturing with :b1: in sente seems the only move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #52 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:13 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 415
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 32
Rank: EGF 2k
Universal go server handle: tygempanda
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess I'll fix my shape but he gets another move white i'm at it :(
Not sure how I'm going to win this game anymore. I just hope he makes a mistake somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #53 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:51 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 161
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Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: Annihilist
IGS: Annihilist
DGS: Ubermensch
Kaya handle: Annihilist
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Joseki move. This is another one of the moves I talked about before. Let's see what he does with it.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #54 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:00 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 415
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Liked others: 43
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Rank: EGF 2k
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I told myself whathever happens I won't make broken shape moves anymore in this game.
As my korean children go books would say: Hané ? -> Extend!

For beginners:
The common answer to a bend around your stone (hané) is an extend of the hané'd stone.
You can see examples of it here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?AttachExtend

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #55 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:36 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
otenki wrote:
As my korean children go books would say: Hané ? -> Extend!
The common answer to a bend around your stone (hané) is an extend of the hané'd stone.
For beginners. Go is very difficult. In this case, the joseki move is to pull back at :w1: (then B hane :b2:), not the extend of :w24:.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #56 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:54 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2494
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
@edlee
EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
otenki wrote:
As my korean children go books would say: Hané ? -> Extend!
The common answer to a bend around your stone (hané) is an extend of the hané'd stone.
For beginners. Go is very difficult. In this case, the joseki move is to pull back at :w1: (then B hane :b2:), not the extend of :w24:.


In this case, white's move may be somewhat suboptimal, but it seems playable, as opposed to just failing. Maybe an invitation to cut and fight.

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Post #57 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:09 pm 
Honinbo
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skydyr, you're correct, :w24: is not a game-over move, certainly not at these levels. That's not the point. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . a , . . . |
$$ . . . b O X . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$-------------------[/go]
otenki wrote:
As my korean children go books would say: Hané ? -> Extend!
The common answer to a bend around your stone (hané) is an extend of the hané'd stone.
(my emphasis in Red)
For beginners. The point is this: it's important to know the dangers of proverbs.
For the above corner shape, a database shows 375 games for (a) pull-back, versus 5 for (b) extend (out of 50,744 pro games).
So the pros don't follow the proverbs quoted by otenki for this shape (except for rare cases).

Another example -- for the following: 7,887 games for (a) pull-back, versus 82 for (b) descend (of 50,744 games).
(Similar to the above.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . X O b . |
$$ . . . . . , a . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$-------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #58 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:38 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 161
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Rank: KGS 10 kyu
KGS: Annihilist
IGS: Annihilist
DGS: Ubermensch
Kaya handle: Annihilist
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just grabbing corner territory.


Also I'm going to be away after Tuesday for a few days, just thought I should mention.

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 Post subject: Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki
Post #59 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:27 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . 6 O . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I don't like my shape. I'll try to fix it but I'm not sure it will be good even after.

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Post #60 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:24 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . a X . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . W O X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------------[/go]
otenki wrote:
I don't like my shape. I'll try to fix it but I'm not sure it will be good even after.
For beginners. This time otenki is correct -- there is a :black: push-and-cut at (a).
This is one reason the joseki move is the pull-back at (a), instead of the extend :wc:( :w24:).

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