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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #41 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:05 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 539
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 45
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , 1 . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black moyo is starting to get a little out of hand. Kirby will need to invade the moyo pretty soon, maybe even now. The problem from his perspective, though, is that Black can still easily approach White's 3-4 stone in the bottom left. Thus, White will need to make a move there pretty soon, too. I wonder how a professional would evaluate this position, but Black seems preferable to me.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #42 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:17 pm 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



_________________
be immersed

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #43 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:11 pm 
Lives in gote

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I propose the following sequence. Feel free to deviate from it, if you so choose. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . 0 8 5 3 2 O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . 9 . . X 1 7 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . O O X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X 1 X . . X X X .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Naturally, Black extends toward the longer, more valuable side with :b1:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X 1 . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's marked stone reduces the value of the top side (because White will either invade via a monkey jump at some point or, else, Black will need to waste another move to prevent this invasion). As a result, Black plays :b7: to emphasize the right side and obtain maximal thickness.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . W . . . . . . . . . O O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The good thing about this joseki is that Black may end up with sente. Black is threatening to play "a" in sente (or to make a sente move in the corner), so White often continues with :w12: (or "a"). However, White shouldn't do so in this case, as he still has to do something about Black's remaining moyo.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . 1 . . . O O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . a O O X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X X X . . X X X .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #44 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:39 am 
Lives in sente
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if a guy starts a game, claiming he intends to play Takemiya style, I can't imagine allowing him a moyo like this. It's a fracking airport.

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Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #45 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:32 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . 5 3 2 O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X 1 . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X 6 X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmm, the sequence he gave is just too good for black. I'll probe here first, before marching onward to my impending doom!

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #46 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:45 am 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
The Intrepid wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This move is meant to gain thickness in sente. Next, I'll play on the top side.


I'm not sure I see why this is sente?

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #47 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:04 am 
Tengen

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skydyr wrote:
The Intrepid wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O 2 O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . a . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This move is meant to gain thickness in sente. Next, I'll play on the top side.


I'm not sure I see why this is sente?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . 7 O 3 O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . 5 4 6 . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O 3 O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . 6 5 4 7 9 O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I guess the second could be playable for White, but I think I'd respond.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #48 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:23 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10674
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Note: Previous post ( viewtopic.php?p=146895#p146895 ) unhidden. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w26: shows incredible confidence or lack of awareness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A center play may be objectively better, but I think that this play gives White more chances to catch up. White can get a base on the side plus access to the center.

_________________
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #49 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:33 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , b . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . a . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If the choice is between "a" and "b" there is really no contest, is there? The next two diagrams illustrate my heuristic for comparison. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Option 1
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , B . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Option 2
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , W . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Well, maybe it's not so obvious, eh? ;)

Later edit: Unhidden. BTW, Black got both.


So I guess the conclusion is that you think I should have played this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Option 2
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , W . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks for the tip! :tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #50 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:03 pm 
Lives in gote

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Whoa, stuff's getting unhidden. Perhaps it's a bit early for this. Who knows, maybe Kirby was thinking he was doing fine, but after the reveal thinks he needs to resort to desperate measures ... like tenuki-ing from the top-right! :shock: Talk of desperate measures! I can fight a ko to kill that corner, I think, which is worth some 20 points. Is White's last move really worth more than that? :scratch: I doubt it. Time for some :study:.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #51 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:31 pm 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
hyperpape wrote:
skydyr wrote:
The Intrepid wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O 2 O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . a . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This move is meant to gain thickness in sente. Next, I'll play on the top side.


I'm not sure I see why this is sente?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . 7 O 3 O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . 5 4 6 . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O 3 O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . 6 5 4 7 9 O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I guess the second could be playable for White, but I think I'd respond.

That's about what I figured would happen as well, but I thought the second was fine for white, as the lower right corner is still open, and white would get a move plus a follow up on the top side.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #52 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I thought about playing in the corner, but what if Kirby does not respond there? Then, I'd be left with 20 points of corner territory. What the hell am I supposed to do with that? This is Takemiya style, yo. Moyo or death!

A possible continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 4 8 . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X 6 X 1 3 7 X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . 0 . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . 9 . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X X X O O O X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X 1 X . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . O . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The result is that Black sacrificed several points to obtain greater thickness in the center.

I do not believe that Black should go for the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X 5 1 2 . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X 3 . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White stones in the center would fall under severe attack, but Black's four stones are also floating. I believe White would be able to use this fact to save his three stones, possibly destroying much of Black's moyo. In the very least, playing this way would carry unnecessary risk for Black, given that the alternative is perfectly fine.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #53 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:25 pm 
Honinbo

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Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , b . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . a . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If the choice is between "a" and "b" there is really no contest, is there? The next two diagrams illustrate my heuristic for comparison. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Option 1
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , B . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Option 2
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , W . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Well, maybe it's not so obvious, eh? ;)

Later edit: Unhidden. BTW, Black got both.


So I guess the conclusion is that you think I should have played this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Option 2
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , W . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks for the tip! :tmbup:


No, that is not the conclusion. ;) I said, if the question were which of those plays to make. Actually, I lean towards an approach to the top left corner. :)

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Visualize whirled peas.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #54 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Actually, I lean towards an approach to the top left corner. :)
Bill, do you mean an approach toward the top-right corner?

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #55 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:29 pm 
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The Intrepid wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Actually, I lean towards an approach to the top left corner. :)
Bill, do you mean an approach toward the top-right corner?


Oh, right! :oops:

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #56 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:48 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe it's immature, but I don't want to play this game anymore. It's clear I've made mistakes and that I'm losing. With high probability, I will lose this game.

I thought seriously about resigning. Then I stopped coming to this site for awhile to see if it was just a temporary thing. I still don't want to finish this game.

But, given that it's early, I ultimately felt it would be rude of me to resign so early, especially to The Intrepid.

So I'm going to jump in right now. I'm already losing and in debt.

I hope this ends the game quickly.

I really am a bad player...

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #57 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:43 pm 
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OK, here we go! :) The deciding moment of the Takemiya-style game has arrived. Black built a huge moyo, and White was forced to invade it. If the invasion succeeds and much of the moyo vanishes, White will be ahead. If Black kills the invasion or saves much of the moyo, Black will be in the lead.

I need to think here for a bit. :study:

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #58 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:28 am 
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Kirby:

I always have the same feeling in malkovich games.

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #59 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:41 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
Kirby:

I always have the same feeling in malkovich games.

Yea, I know what you are saying. If you know who I am? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #60 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Kirby:
It's too early to resign. The game might already be over, but that's not the point. People will still find it interesting to follow and to comment. And for intrepid, I think that turning a moyo into profit is part of what he calls Takemiya style (besides, he is thinking hard). So please, take it as a teaching game and let him and the observers enjoy the show, till the big fat kill (or till the endgame, who knows). There are kyus 'round here. And the popularity of the thread speaks for itself. We like you. And continuing the game is appreciated.

Kirby wrote:
I really am a bad player...


I don't think that this attitude is helpful. Show some spirit, sensei! :)

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