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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #81 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So far, so good. Also, that s18 move I mentioned in my previous post probably won't kill the top-right corner, but instead lead to a ko (because White can get a free move by threatening to connect to the White group on the right). Even so, the ko should be difficult for White to win after I protect the moyo at q14.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #82 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:10 pm 
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KGS: Kirby
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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it's be happy, not achieve happiness
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #83 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:13 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ah, maybe I was misreading the corner situation after s18 altogether. Current plan is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . 5 .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 3 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White tenuki's from here, then Black has the option of fighting this ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 :w7: tenuki
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O b . . . . . . . . X O . . O .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . c . . . . X X O O . 2|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X O 1|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . d . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black will win this ko easily, if he chooses, but it is probably bigger instead to enlarge the moyo at "a" or, perhaps, at one of the other marked points.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #84 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:38 pm 
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KGS: Kirby
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #85 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:43 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now White might be playing with fire. I guess we'll see. :)

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #86 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:58 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Couldn't figure out a way to live in sente. Oh well.

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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #87 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O . .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Oh, I see. That's pretty good. :) Even so, just look at the Black moyo--the tasteful thickness of it. :D

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #88 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:18 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8658
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KGS: Kirby
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O 2 .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #89 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:19 pm 
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Does this even live?? :shock:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O a . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If it does (even in ko), then it's possible I'll simply play at "a," force White to connect, and then play something like "b."

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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #90 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:17 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 539
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had the choice between the move played in the game and between the following, where "a" next initiates a ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Having the ability to start a ko there at some point would be good, but I'd rather force White to connect on the first line while I eliminate :wc: in sente. After :wc: is no more, the right wall of my moyo will be most thick, significantly reducing White's chances to successfully invade my moyo in the center.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #91 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:36 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8658
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, he decided to give me the option of living instead of Ko. I'll keep that in my back pocket. If he had played the Ko, I would use moves like the one I just played as Ko threats.

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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #92 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:24 pm 
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It's interesting that Kirby decided to play here now, given that this move wasn't going away anywere anytime soon. Maybe he played this as a probe to see how I'll respond. I'm considering these moves in response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X a . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I need to see if one of these moves can reduce the aji of the cut at "a."

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline Schachus
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #93 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:46 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 175
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Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
KGS: Schachus12
The Intrepid wrote:
I had the choice between the move played in the game and between the following, where "a" next initiates a ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Having the ability to start a ko there at some point would be good, but I'd rather force White to connect on the first line while I eliminate :wc: in sente. After :wc: is no more, the right wall of my moyo will be most thick, significantly reducing White's chances to successfully invade my moyo in the center.

I dont see, why 2 makes a ko..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 5 3 .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

what does white do now?

but maybe this is ko because a is sente too connect?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 a|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 7 .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . 8 3 6|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O 9|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X 1 4|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X W X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No clue, If this line is any good, but looks like ko to me
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #94 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:22 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8672
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 2008
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X O . 2 . . |
$$ . . X X O O O . |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . X O . 2 . 4 |
$$ . . X X O O O 3 |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . X O . . . . |
$$ . . X X O O O . |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . 2 . 5 . |
$$ . . X O . . . 4 |
$$ . . X X O O O 3 |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
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Offline Schachus
 Post subject: Re:
Post #95 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:59 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 175
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 55
Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
KGS: Schachus12
EdLee wrote:
Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X O . 2 . . |
$$ . . X X O O O . |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . X O . 2 . 4 |
$$ . . X X O O O 3 |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . X O . . . . |
$$ . . X X O O O . |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . 2 . 5 . |
$$ . . X O . . . 4 |
$$ . . X X O O O 3 |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]


It would help if you would comment on your moves.
For the first one, why does exchanging the hane before placement help compared to my line? For the second one, you seem to be right it's dead, no ko(so I'm stil mystified, where the players saw ko. Edit: maybe descent?).
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Offline explo
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #96 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:48 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 85
Location: France
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Rank: FFG 1d
@Schachus

I don't think the hane makes a difference in your first diagram.
If white plays hane before the hanging connection he's actually alive. White can play it in the game because it threatens to connect to the other group. If white doesn't play the hane first he's dead as EdLee showed.
There is a ko if white plays the descent.
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Offline Schachus
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #97 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:51 am 
Lives with ko

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Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
KGS: Schachus12
explo wrote:
@Schachus

I don't think the hane makes a difference in your first diagram.
If white plays hane before the hanging connection he's actually alive. White can play it in the game because it threatens to connect to the other group. If white doesn't play the hane first he's dead as EdLee showed.
There is a ko if white plays the descent.

I had that idea too, but I dont think hane first really helps, cause black can just hane back to prevent the connection and after tigermouth eds variation still works as before. Maybe you need to play descent instead of tigermouth?
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Offline explo
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #98 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:03 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 85
Location: France
Liked others: 12
Was liked: 14
Rank: FFG 1d
You're right, I spoke too quickly. When white plays hane, it doesn't change the status if black can block. If black can only draw back, white is alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . X O . . 6 . |
$$ . . X X O O O 5 |
$$ . . . . X X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]

This is alive.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . 2 . 3 4 . |
$$ . . X O . . 5 6 |
$$ . . X X O O O . |
$$ . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . O X O . |
$$ X . O . X O . . |[/go]

This is one way to start the ko.
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #99 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:34 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 539
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's possible that any of the three moves I considered was playable, but I chose the safest of them to minimize the aji of the N6 cut.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: #225: The Intrepid vs Kirby: Takemiya Style
Post #100 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:00 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8658
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . .|
$$ |. . . O X . . . . . . . . X X O O O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . , X . . . . X X . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X .|
$$ |. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O X O .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X O . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . X .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . , . . . . . O O O . . . X . . .|
$$ |. . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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