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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #201 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:20 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
@obs
This kind of endgame hassling is the fun that comes from splitting groups, not playing the topological game as drmwc calls it.


I thought that splitting groups was topological. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #202 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:35 am 
Lives in gote
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I needed to change to 10 posts per page to read the previous page.

Ubderdude:
I fully expect resistance. However, a lot of moves are conceivable and giving diagrams for them all was impracticable. Furthermore, it's not completely clear my move is 100% sente. Specifically, any of the moves marked at a maybe possible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O a . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a O . . . O . . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . a . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | a X a X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . 3 . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 6 . . . O a a . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


The position is complex, and certainly beyond my reading abilities! I think I avoid collapse in the lines I've looked at, but I may have overlooked something somewhere.


Last edited by drmwc on Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #203 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:37 am 
Tengen
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My initial reaction is to set up the miai cuts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O C . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O C X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]



So far, I can't see any reason why I can't do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 4 O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 2 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


But it is complicated. I must read more.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #204 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:24 am 
Tengen
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It comes down to a simple choice: get busy living or get busy dying.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]



One of the more amusing lines that I have found, even if he does maintain a connection on the F file:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc ( Although I could tenuki with 6 )
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X 2 O 5 X 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 1 X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 7 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc I get two eyes
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . C X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 9 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O 6 7 C . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . 5 O 1 3 . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . 8 2 4 O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------[/go]


And his upper middle group is on the verge of getting trapped.
Sure, there are lots of unexplored branches in these last 2 diagrams, so I can't claim that it works. But it is one more way to solve the living in the middle issue.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #205 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:44 am 
Gosei

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Joaz, you may want to proofread and correct the hidden part of your post (second diagram doesn't display correctly, because ']' is missing from the end of '[/go]'-tag)

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #206 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:56 am 
Judan

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I very much doubt white will make the h16 j17 exchange as it damages the top, but just connect. If black then cuts at a then b should be sente and fixes the c weakness for now, or maybe just d atari. Then white could run out his middle group (which also pressures black's middle) or try to kill the left somehow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc ( Although I could tenuki with 6 )
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b O . . O d X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O a . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 1 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #207 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:45 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


Joaz's move is pretty good.

However, the continuation is unclear - I don't think white can cut. I atari, which bodges my shape, and ask questions of the centre group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O 4 X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O 3 5 X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . 7 6 O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X 9 X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . 0 . 8 X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . a . 6 O O X X X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . 3 O 1 O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O 4 5 . a X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


Next the two moves marked a are miai. Black may have issues if this happens. His best bet may be trying for a big trade e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O 4 O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O O O X X X O . 5 . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . X . X O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O O X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 1 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


My group is in trouble, but so is black's. So this line requires careful counting. SO maybe I should do this instead:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O X X X O . 2 . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 3 X . . X . X O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O O X . 4 X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X 5 X . 1 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . O . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


This line seems reasonable for me - black is in more trouble than white. Finally, if black doesn't cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X 7 X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X . X O . 4 . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 5 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 3 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


It's not clear to me where is best for me here. If I play 4 above, black still can't cut since it transposes. Black's next move is unclear - protecting on the right may be prudent. Then I can pretend to be alive everywhere and start the endgame. I could also contemplate all out war against the centre group.

If black doesn't play 5, he needs to worry about this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 6 9 . . O 2 X . X O . 4 . . O . . . |
$$ | 7 X . X . . . 5 . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 3 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


If a move at a is black's sente, he can bodge against this aji by playing there first.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #208 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:07 am 
Judan

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Seems drmwc isn't looking as hard for good black moves as he is for good white moves. Isn't this a connection:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 O . . . 7 . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O 3 . O O X . O 9 X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O a O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . O 1 O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


Of course these threats are still nice as white can try to prevent that connection beforehand in sente, or if black ignores say m18 to live in the centre white gets compensation on the side.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #209 Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:16 am 
Tengen
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It is Xmas time: business is real busy and will be until the 24th. I will be back in a week or two.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #210 Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:30 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


The position is complicated, and I don't claim to have analyzed all of the lines, but after playing with it a bit, I have come to the conclusion that a play in the upper left is double sente.
Altough I have two iffy groups, ( one in the upper left, one center ) I don't have to make a choice between them. This protects both of them.
It protects the upper left directly by getting more room, and the center can live because of the aji of the cut at G16.

So I am going to play this before he plays B17. Then I am going to take the previously announced break to read in depth.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #211 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:46 am 
Tengen
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Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #212 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:48 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I think this is slightly better than the hanging connection. For example,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O X . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 1 4 . . O O X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | 2 X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I cannot play the sequence above if the 5-a exchange has been played. Black 5 is not really sente at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #213 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:34 pm 
Tengen
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For observers
Hmmm...he plays the fighting move at C18 instead of the more teritorial B18. :o
And since he is already behind in territory, this move suggests that he has given up on competing directly for territory. It consequently implies that he is assuming that his best winning strategy is to kill something.

Now this may be old news for you observers, but it is the first solid evidence that I have of his intentions.

It is not an unreasonable plan. I have two groups that are right on the edge of getting killed.

My current assement is that my left side group can be reduced to zero points as it struggles to live, barely succeeding with seki. I'm still about 10 or 15 points ahead then.

If it does live, I can tenuki with H8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O ? ? X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . C . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . ? . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . ? . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O 6 . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O C . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


That makes miai of the two shaded areas. If he has to defend at G16, I can play the other spot ( probably N10 ) which then makes miai of the two circled spots, threatening to kill two of his groups. Then, even if he is succesful at living with both, I'm alive everywhere, and I go into yose with sente.

It looks good for me...IF my left side group can live.

I must take some time to read this carefully.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #214 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:34 am 
Tengen
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I still can't see how he can kill my left side group.

In another thread, Bill Spight wrote:
... If you want to stick with what you can read out, try tic-tac-toe. ;) If you want to get the initiative, seize it...


If I lose, it's Bill's fault.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O 6 . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #215 Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:15 am 
Tengen
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For observers:
The more I look at this position, the more I tend toward the conclusion that this game will be over within ten moves. My middle group can connect or make a second eye. If he kills my left side group, I lose. If not, I'm ahead by 10 to 20 points, or more.

He can reduce my left side group substantially. But to do so, he ends in gote, and then I still go into yose with sente and at least 10 point lead.

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Post #216 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:14 pm 
Honinbo
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
My middle group can connect or make a second eye.
Can it ?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #217 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:01 am 
Lives in gote
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Happy New Year, and sorry for the delay.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 7 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O 6 . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I was tempted just to connect my bits. However, that seems to leave me behind. So then I looked at attacks against the top left black groups. These don't work yet (See diagram below).

The move played seems to activate these attacks. It also indirectly strengthens me and makes separating white in the centre more severe.

However, it may well be an overplay. But it feels like an aggressive move is best.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W failure
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O O X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | 2 X 4 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O X . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #218 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:51 am 
Tengen
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To observers:
Ouch!
IIRC, part of my defense was a timely play at C11, which threatened to get another eye. It has been a month or so since I read this out, so I don't remember the details. But I do remember that I die if I don't have that threat. So I think that I have to let him invade.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #219 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:20 pm 
Tengen
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He invades what should have been my territory while attacking...
I'll invade what should have been his while defending.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 7 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O 6 . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


He can invade some of my territory on the left. But he has to keep sente, and/or come back and patch up on the right in gote. If 96 goes unanswered, P7 starts to look interesting. And while he defends against that, making sure that N5 has two eyes, I'm building strength to go after L15.

All the while, the end of the game gets closer, and my two big right side corners loom large on that horizon.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #220 Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:26 am 
Tengen
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BUMP

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