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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #81 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:39 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Q (unrelated to go): What do you call a pig with no eyes?
A (unrelated to go):Pg.

The 3-3 is very big - since I was seriously considering replying to it if Joaz played there, it may be double sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


This continuation is possible. I prefer 3 to the other side approach, since black may get a reasonable moyo after a pincer with the other approach move e.g.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X 8 . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Black gets a big moyo here. Of course, I have altnerantive approach moves and I don't need to go into the 3-3. But approaching from the other side bypasses these issues so is my current favourite.

Joaz may tenuki the 3-3 (that may be the intention behind the slightly odd LHS extension.)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Then I can quickly nab some more territory in sente, creating some cutting aji, then plop a stone somewhere in B's moyo. I seem to have made some inroads into B's initial advantage in this diagram.

On a side note, I think this point may be becoming large:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 3 . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


It's on the boundary of two moyos. It's may be a little too early to play it, but compare it with this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Black creates a deep valley for his moyo - a reaonable chunk may become territory.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #82 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:34 am 
Oza

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


This looks really close to black's wall? I'm curious about the explanation because I don't understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #83 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:48 am 
Honinbo

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Sorry everyone, a new business venture developed some complications, but they have recently been beaten into submission.

I'll move now, make comments later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


:b36: extends only three spaces? Oh, dear!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #84 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:32 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #85 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:35 pm 
Honinbo

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Now I ask you, which of these do you prefer as Black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 A
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #86 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:49 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 436
Liked others: 64
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Rank: 4 Dan European
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Not where I said I would play in an earlier post- on further reflection, I changed my mind.

A possible continuation is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . 5 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


My aims with this sequence are:
1) Point out that B 36 is on a slightly eccentric point;
2) Make black overconcentrated;
3) Suppress any possible black moyo (e.g. black a before I play this sequence)
4) Give white an aim of a moyo.

Since this is so many aims, I prefer it to the apporach move I showed before.

Black has around 15-20 points LHS (including the star point stones); 15 - 25 points lower right; 15 points upper right. This totals around 45 points (lower estimate) or 60 points (upper end).

White has 15 points lower left, and maybe 10 point on the right for around 25 points. So I'm behind by around 20 points (or 40 points if the middlegame and endgame goes awry); and it black's sente (which is quite valuable here).

Offsetting this is white's thickness - if I get centre moyo, it could easily net 20 points. So counting it a 10 points feels reasonable.

Overall, I am still behind but I've caught up by a reaonable amount and it now feels like maybe a 2 to 2.5 stone advantage for black.

An example of a moyo strategy for me, continuing from the previous diagram,is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 5 . 3 X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I probably won't play this way, since it's a little 1-dimensional and territorial, but it demonstrates that the thickness may have a reasonable amount of value.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #87 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:00 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The natural response.
Although, I must admit that my inner DDK wanted to use the wall to grab territory by playing D8.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #88 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:11 pm 
Judan

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My inner dan is angry and full of kiai and wants to tenuki, or at least play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm39
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 6 9 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #89 Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:43 am 
Oza

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Uberdude wrote:
My inner dan is angry and full of kiai and wants to tenuki, or at least play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm39
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 6 9 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


@Uberdude
Out of curiosity, do you think black should have responded differently or with tenuki instead of :b40:? I at least considered a pincer from the other side, since black's wall is in no danger.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #90 Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:38 am 
Tengen
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At move 36, Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...
I'll move now, make comments later.

In the following position, I have several concerns:
1) The push-and-cut around 'a', and
2) White building a safe group around 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X a . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


In the worst possible circumstances, he might be able to do both.

So, what to do?
I'd like to take the 3-3, but this leaves me open to the push and cut, which goes like this - I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 2 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


My wall is compromised, and I may have to use it to make eyes in gote. That is just too ugly to even consider.

The other plan would be to take the big point on the side like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . B . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


This turns out badly too. White either gets a huge corner, or we both live small on the side, and again, my wall is compromised.

I've got two places that I want to play: the corner and the side. Both have issues.
So I chose a blend of the two, something not quite fish or foul. I'm sure it pleases nobody. Heck, it doen't even please me. But I couldn't find any other way of avoiding both problems.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #91 Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:05 am 
Tengen
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For observers:
I don't understand white's latest move.

My penultimate move was a compromise, with the primary goal of strengthening my wall. After his play at 3-3 and my descent at the 3-4, my wall is even stronger.

I'd expect him to stay away from it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I was expecting an approach to the remaining corner with something like 'a', or a play on the remaining open side with 'b'.

It seems that my opponent has no respect for walls.

I must change that. :rambo:

His next will almost certainly be a supporting move for his previous. When he does that, I intend to push him toward the wall.

Like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


===========================================================

Actually, I suspect that my oponent does have proper respect for walls. He may be trying to use his over on the right.

I think that his long term plan is to build strength on the left - even if it means conceding some territory there to me, and then try to push my upper right group into a fight in the middle.

Something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , O . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


So the latest addition to my list of goals is to somehow neutralize his strength on the right. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #92 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:44 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 436
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


As planned.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #93 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:53 am 
Judan

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So after the right side and w came into the lower side Bill and drmwc both thought white had caught up about half a stone and I agreed. After black's exotic h2 I thought that was probably almost one stone. drmwc says "it now feels like maybe a 2 to 2.5 stone advantage for black" i.e. caught up 1.5 - 2. That's quite a big jump. Most of the blame for that would have to be on 36 at c8, but can it really be almost as bad as a pass? I suppose 34 for 35 helped white more than black too. I'll go for white's caught up by pi/2 :) .

skydyr wrote:
@Uberdude
[hide]Out of curiosity, do you think black should have responded differently or with tenuki instead of :b40:? I at least considered a pincer from the other side, since black's wall is in no danger.


I vaguely considered it but ignoring a shoulder hit is just too painful I think (unless you are going to kill it). One push then pincer looks better and seems to be Joaz's plan. drmwc's 42 at e7 is so passive, did he really think black would do that or just showing a standard shoulder hit joseki as his dream?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #94 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:23 am 
Judan

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@drmwc

Did you consider d11 jump?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #95 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:52 am 
Lives in gote
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Uberdude wrote:
@drmwc

Did you consider d11 jump?


Briefly. I'm probably not really strong enough to distinguish between it and the move I played. With that caveat in mind, my thoughts were:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Black 42 here feels sort of natural. Then 43 as shown is good shape, but very slow. Black get a lot of territory.

As played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


42 as here feels a bit loose - it's quite far from my move. I can now bodge my group in sente and get first move at the top. The pushing on top moves with 43, 45 and 46 are more effective with the move played than with the jump. They add to my vague moyo-y plans.

Alternatively, for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Black 42 here give me more to aim at than in the first diagram - if my group is strong, it's too close to thickness.


This post by drmwc was liked by: Uberdude
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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #96 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:35 pm 
Judan

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@drmwc

I recall in the game with lovelove you said you had a heavy fighting style* in contrast to his light stone-scattering one, so extend was not unexpected :) (and would probably be my choice too).

*and that tallies with my memory of our games.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #97 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:57 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5385
Location: Banbeck Vale
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Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I have a wall; he has a heavy group. I must do this, or Kato would haunt me.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #98 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:13 pm 
Judan

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@Joaz

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I must do this, or Kato would haunt me.

Does "this" mean attack or kill?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #99 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:23 pm 
Tengen
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Kaya handle: Test
To observers (particularly Uberdude ):
I'm feeling much better about this game in the last two moves. Three moves ago, I made a compromise move - my second of the game :oops: - in return for a wall that I hoped to be able to use.

Much to my surprise, my opponent played closer to the wall than he had to. ( Or at least closer than I thought that he had to. ) He then followed this up by making himself heavy.
I'm not going to say that he has made a bad decision with these last two moves, but they do have some theoretical disadvatage. Presumably he sees some advantage that I don't.

Regardless, the theory is simple for me: I should push his heavy eyeless stones toward my wall, and make territory while attacking. ( Note to Uberdude, who posted while I was writing this: while killing would be preferred, I don't think that my opponent will be that cooperative. Besides, attacking is good enough. ) He will run through the center to what is ultimately mostly dame, while I will get a picket line outlining territory up top.

I'm thinking of something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . 6 . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . 5 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


...or this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #100 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:34 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10543
Liked others: 3494
Was liked: 3313
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . 4 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


drmwc has already indicated that he will play :w43:, which is usual. I hope that Joaz continues with :b44:. His aim should be to come out of the fight with sente and take the last big point on the top side.

After :b44: in this diagram I think that White has caught up by about 2 stones. Recent culprits are the :bc: stones. The sacrifice was an overall loss and the stones on the left side made Black overconcentrated. There is also a certain heaviness to Black's play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 7 . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This was my suggestion for :b28:. I expect that it is objectively flawed, that Black should play kikashi against the White group on the bottom side in order to build up thickness before extending on the left side.

But what happened in the game? Black made plays against the White group, but then worried about his wall. That is why he made the short extension, and why he blocked at C-04. Instead of making thickness, he made a heavy wall in his own mind, too weak to leave alone, too important to lose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Light jumps
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


:wc: was not my sealed move, but now I see that it is a very practical play giving four stones. But after that I would continue with :w41: and :w43:. This is lighter than drmwc's continuation, but it seems that he admits to having a somewhat heavy style. We shall see how well Joaz can attack, assuming that he does.

Edit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . 5 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


After Joaz's post I can now project play to go this way. Note that instead of driving the White stones towards the Black wall, Black is driving them towards the White position on the right side, where they may be used to make a moyo. In any event, the result is a reduction of Black's influence instead of using it to attack. That is why, IMO, :b44: should top the tree at 45.

However, Black is building a moyo himself, in effect transfering the influence of his wall to the top side. This kind of sideways attack is not an unusual handicap strategy.

Still, isn't :w45: in this diagram a beautiful move?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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