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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #61 Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . b . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . c . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I haven't researched moves to use when playing against a sanrensai opening very much. (I haven't researched any particular opening much, actually.) I'm using the Nihon Ki-in Small Encyclopedia of Fuseki to find candidate moves in this position, and it looks like a, b, and c are my primary candidate moves. I've put a few of the main lines into an sgf file to show what I am thinking could happen:



The 3-3 invasion seems to be the most common move here and is consistent with my earlier stated intentions, but I want to look at this position just a little more.


Attachments:
Move 26 Candidates.sgf [519 Bytes]
Downloaded 130 times
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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #62 Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . @ . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I looked enough. :D (I wrote most of my earlier post a while before I hit the post button.)

My final decision is whether the corner invasion should be a king. With O17 in place, I don't think black can force me to sacrifice the 3-3 stone. Of course, I'm not certain, so this is a bit scary. But this is kingo, and I'm trying to exploit the idea of gained efficiency with territorial moves as much as possible.

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Post #63 Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 pm 
Judan
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Difficult to decide if :w26: should be a king.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . @ @ . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 W 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
B also has to decide whether and when to activate ( :b1: - :w4: ) sequence.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #64 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:24 am 
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Just wanted to let you know that I've reverted to the original scoring: kings only, no territories. Thanks for your feedback.

Also, I've written up an entry for Kingo on Sensei's Library.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #65 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:52 am 
Oza
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As it stands, the traditional divide of playing for territory vs. playing for influence seems to make it quite a bit easier, at least in the early stages of the game, for the territorial player to play kings. The influence player is banking on having advantages in later fights, but fights are where things die making it seem rather risky to play a king... Interesting to see how the game proceeds. Thanks to both players for being guinea pigs :)

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This post by daal was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, luigi
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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #66 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:59 am 
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daal wrote:
As it stands, the traditional divide of playing for territory vs. playing for influence seems to make it quite a bit easier, at least in the early stages of the game, for the territorial player to play kings. The influence player is banking on having advantages in later fights, but fights are where things die making it seem rather risky to play a king... Interesting to see how the game proceeds. Thanks to both players for being guinea pigs :)



I agree, but the group tax mitigates that somewhat. That’s part of why I think it’s important to retain that rule.

It’s a good learning experience to play his game. I have to be much more thoughtful about what’s really alive, what *might* become territory, and what I’m willing to sacrifice. I can play intuitively and change my mind frequently; this requires me to make a plan and stick to it (somewhat).


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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #67 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:56 pm 
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My last move may have gotten lost in the conversation, so I thought I’d bump this thread with a trigger.

Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . W W . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . 7 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #68 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:07 am 
Tengen

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OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger accepted.

Sorry, it wasn't forgotten, I just had a lack of time recently...nothing that interesting, but for instance, last night I tried to sneak time for a response, but the younger of my kids didn't go to bed until 10:30 ><.

This is the obvious location, but I mulled over the pawn/king distinction. I played through a lot of professional games, and felt like while there's a lot of fighting that can arise from this joseki, it more often than not leaves the three connected B stones alone. I definitely think this is a more borderline king move than White's plays so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #69 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:27 am 
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No problem! I have two small kids, so I totally understand!

This next move seems really important, so it might take me a while to sort through the possibilities.

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Post #70 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:30 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X ? ? . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . ? . . ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Possbilities of :w1: , among others.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #71 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Might be a stupid question, but where's White 30?

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Post #72 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:17 pm 
Judan
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Hi luigi, o18.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . 6 @ . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . 7 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #73 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:17 pm 
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luigi wrote:
Might be a stupid question, but where's White 30?

O18. The order of moves isn’t clear because I played a bunch of kings in the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #74 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Oh, right, thanks. :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #75 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:42 pm 
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In general I feel good about this position, but there are some major considerations regarding my next move.

If I leave the upper right corner to play at 32, the moves to 37 give black a ko for the corner. (I found this sequence right after I played the joseki in the trigger, naturally.) Normally this ko would be very bad for black at this point, but with the kings I've played in the corner I need to be careful, especially since black has at least three absolute ko threats in the sequence a-f.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . 4 5 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W 3 . |
$$ | . f W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B 6 7 |
$$ | . e O X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X O d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b W c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Capturing the stone in the upper left would be too slow right now, so I need to find another way to remove the aji. The most natural idea is to play either a or b:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W a . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B b . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Retaining sente is important so I can get a move in the lower right before black turns his massive moyo into territory, so I think a is the best option. But will it really retain sente, or will black tenuki?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Retains sente, but helps black solidify the right side
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B B . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black tenukis - is it good enough?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I need to do a count to decide if these options are playable for white. I don't have time for that right now, so my move will wait for later.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #76 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W @ . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W @ . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . a . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I could win the ko right now, but I really don't like leaving that aji. The plus side to this is that since that corner is secure I can also aim for a cut around a later. The timing isn't right for that now, but I think that may help me make some territory along the top. Black's moyo is massive now, so my next move will aim to invade. I gave an idea of what I'm thinking of above, but I need to consider the exact point carefully.

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Post #77 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:44 am 
Judan
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I'm probably missing something about this worry about some ko ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . W . . . 2 3 |
$$ . . . . . . X . O . W W 1 . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . B X B 6 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . 8 6 . W . . . 2 3 |
$$ . . . . . 7 X . O . W W 1 . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . B X B 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I feel the game move :w32: = :wc: helps B fix the opening around R12.

I couldn't find the double hane :b3: from one database --
maybe Jeromie has other sources; I'll ask him.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . . 2 3 |
$$ . . . . . . X . O . O O 1 . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #78 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:57 am 
Judan
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Hi Jeromie,
Quote:
(I found this sequence right after I played the joseki in the trigger, naturally.)
Did you find it from experimentation, or some reference materials or database ? (I'm curious.)

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Post #79 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:30 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
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Rank: KGS 2k
KGS: Schachus12
EdLee wrote:
I'm probably missing something about this worry about some ko ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . W . . . 2 3 |
$$ . . . . . . X . O . W W 1 . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . B X B 6 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . 8 6 . W . . . 2 3 |
$$ . . . . . 7 X . O . W W 1 . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . B X B 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I feel the game move :w32: = :wc: helps B fix the opening around R12.

I couldn't find the double hane :b3: from one database --
maybe Jeromie has other sources; I'll ask him.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . . 2 3 |
$$ . . . . . . X . O . O O 1 . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I can understand jeromies worries somewhat. Answering at 4 does not allow any kos but also feels very submissive (If black were to play 3 at 5, white might want to answer with 4 at 3. Edit: actually It seems I'm wrong, josekipedia suggests playing at 6 even if black were to play 3 at 5). In your second sequence, having to crawl on the second line is pretty sad and also fixes blacks shape, more so then the game Also, are you completely sure black cant hane with 7 at 8?

If there werent any kings and it was a normal go game, w would surely prefer to cut with 4 and play the ko jeromie suggested.

All things considered, I like jeromies move! Also I'm exited, cause its the first time kingo has definitely led to a different move then normal go would.

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Post #80 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:04 am 
Lives in sente

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Rank: KGS 3k
Universal go server handle: jeromie
EdLee wrote:
Hi Jeromie,
Quote:
(I found this sequence right after I played the joseki in the trigger, naturally.)
Did you find it from experimentation, or some reference materials or database ? (I'm curious.)


I found it from a pattern search on Sensei’s Linrary. Since this is a common Joseki I didn’t play with it much, but I did try to look for common follow ups. That was surprisingly difficult to find.

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