Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:58 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know about AlphaGo, but this is a position about which Go Seigen was ambivalent. In his 10 book set, 21st Century Go, there is one place where he likes it for White, one place where he doesn't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My sealed move.

Edit: Unhidden.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:00 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:53 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We're still within an opening that has been played by pros - there are 3 games on ps.waltheri.net with this sequence. (I find it interesting that two of them involve Cho Chikun, but he played black in one and white in the other. Also, it's a bit weird to be playing a game where I can reference what moves the pros played. I've never played an open book game before.) In all cases 15 and 16 were the standard moves.

I don't have a reason to consider a different move, but I do need to consider whether it should be a king or a pawn. In all of the pro games the stones in the corner stayed connected, but I think that if I made this stone a king black could get a result better than the normal corner by forcing me to play defensively after a hane at f2, like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have to play passively at 4 instead of breaking out of the corner with a move like a because I can't sacrifice 2. There are also lines that would involve sacrificing my original king stone, which I can't do.

It's interesting playing this variation. It makes me think about the threat of sacrificing even when I don't intend to do so. It's hard to consider that several moves ahead, but I can't add as many kings to this corner group as I had hoped. Things should be more clear after the next move, though.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:40 pm

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:05 pm

D4, pawn.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:55 pm

Hi Hyperpape,

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:21 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . @ O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . @ O 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Basic rule of kingo: every stone attached to a group with a king should itself be a king.
Still following a pro game, but I've gotten three extra points out of our exchanges so far since I've used a few kings. I feel good about that. I expect the a / b exchange next, and possibly one more move attempting to seal me in before leaving this corner.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:57 am

EdLee:

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:32 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . @ O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:59 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger accepted.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:21 pm

To other observers:

jeromie wrote: ...
I assume white will move in the upper left next.

C13 is huge.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:35 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . T . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X 1 a 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are two moves that have been played in this position by professional players, a and b. a occurred in a game by Cho Chikun, and he came back to b after the exchange. I don't think I can take advantage of that exchange if black were to tenuki, so I'm going to make the other move and play b directly. I expect black will play at the triangled point to make a sanrensai next.

Once again, there is the question of whether I should make my move a king. I could imagine some situation where black could use the threat of capturing a king to get some outside influence, but truthfully I think it breaks my strategy for that corner if I were to let that black stone escape. So I'm making it a king, trusting that the small gains in efficiency I am making will offset the heaviness of my stones later.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:29 am

The left and the bottom seem like obvious places not to play right now, which leaves the top or the right hand side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . 6 4 . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . 7 X 5 . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X B . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know how I'd continue here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . 8 . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . 9 . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The two stones in the lower right are nice to have, and White is not fully settled, but the top is also nice for W.

All told, I'm leaning towards the sanrensei, if only because I feel like I understand the position more.

A further question is how to evaluate the influence vs territory trade that we've made so far, relative to an ordinary game of go. Say in normal go, the expected score in this position is +/- X. How does the expected score in this game compare? There are 5 white kings already played, which is one component. There is whatever loss of flexibility white has from those kings, which I think is small on this board. Then there's the value of Black's moyo. Is it larger than it would be in regular go, or can White claim those 5 points as pure profit? It's hard to tell, but I think this position is probably better for White than the corresponding position in regular go. Hopefully I'm wrong about that.

yoyoma · Post by **yoyoma** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:06 pm

luigi · Post by **luigi** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:56 am

I've finally decided to include territories in the score. After all, there's a reason why Go evolved from stone scoring to area scoring.

Needless to say, this shouldn't affect your ongoing game, which was started with the old rules.

Life In 19x19

Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape