Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm34 :white: 62 | :black: 78 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | 2 . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X 1 . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 X X X X B B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X B 1 X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B B X O O | $$ | . . . O 2 1 . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . 1 X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X 2 O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . 2 . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 :white: 62 | :black: 78 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O . . X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 . . O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:34 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 :white: 68 | :black: 84 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O 2 . X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . 2 . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 . 2 O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think there's a lot of interesting strategy in this one. It's pleasantly unclear what immediate implications there will be whenever you place single stones, particularly in the opening. It feels like a single stone played half way through can be good _only if your opponent will have to play a single stone in response at some point._

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 :white: 68 | :black: 90 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O 2 . X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | 3 . . X X X . . . X . 3 . X X X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O 2 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 2 3 . . . 3 . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . 2 . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 . 2 O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:I think there's a lot of interesting strategy in this one. It's pleasantly unclear what immediate implications there will be whenever you place single stones, particularly in the opening.

Yes, if the opponent starts growing, more often than not one will have to follow suit. If in that case the distribution of one's stones is unbalanced, the opponent may carve out big pieces of the pie. One must either use that or face that

topazg wrote:It feels like a single stone played half way through can be good _only if your opponent will have to play a single stone in response at some point._

'Only' may be a bit strong, but most of the time yes. But a single is also a source for additional growth, and if it can manage the quest for life it starts paying of a few moves later.

As in Go, there's quite often a difference between the 'general' and the 'specific'.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 :white: 74 | :black: 90 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O 2 4 X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | 3 . . X X X . . . X . 3 . X X X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O 2 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 2 3 . . . 3 . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . 2 . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 4 2 O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling wrote:Yes, if the opponent starts growing, more often than not one will have to fowwow suit. If in that case the distribution of one's stones is unbalanced, the opponent may carve out big pieces of the pie. One must either use that or face that

I think that's where the strategy becomes interesting. Evaluating the difference between following suit or expanding is complex, particularly as the territory potential of groups is variable, so even though you may have more groups and thus more stones to place per turn, that doesn't necessarily correlate to the expected total net points of (group * moves) due to the limit of expansion that each group has.

christian freeling wrote:
topazg wrote:It feels like a single stone played half way through can be good _only if your opponent will have to play a single stone in response at some point._
'Only' may be a bit strong, but most of the time yes. But a single is also a source for additional growth, and if it can manage the quest for life it starts paying of a few moves later.

As in Go, there's quite often a difference between the 'general' and the 'specific'.

A single stone is only really a source for additional growth if it isn't fundamentally doomed. For example, I would have considered the second line contact play against your group at the right hand side a bad move if you could kill my group without having to spend a turn making a single stone move. As it was, I figured I could get some points back, and effectively maintain sente without losing momentum on multi-stone moves. The fact you then required a set number of multi-moves to kill it guaranteed the life in the top left corner as well, which was something I had been struggling on how to achieve without having to use a single-stone move.

The quest for life is actually remarkably hard for an invading stone. Not least because your opponent can make go-nonsense moves to kill it (such as contact playing a 3rd line stone on the 2nd line). Because the typical moves consist of extensions, it's remarkably hard to place killing moves without losing the momentum of multiple stones, and as your opponent has other groups around if its an invasion, that means you end up making less stones for your group per move than your opponent gets towards killing it and removing eyespace. All of which increases the importance of well placed early stones.

I think strategically I'm still a fledgeling at this game, but the progress so far is intuitively strengthening my opinion that territorially placed early stones are more valuable than influential ones. The nature of the extension game makes it even harder to quickly mark out central territory than it is in Go I think.

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:56 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm40 :white: 74 | :black: 96 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X 1 . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . 1 X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | 1 . . . . X X X . X X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X . . 1 X . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:I think that's where the strategy becomes interesting. Evaluating the difference between following suit or expanding is complex, particularly as the territory potential of groups is variable, so even though you may have more groups and thus more stones to place per turn, that doesn't necessarily correlate to the expected total net points of (group * moves) due to the limit of expansion that each group has.

You got that figured out fast. Though my experience is limited, I've encountered that phenomenon regularly.

topazg wrote:The fact you then required a set number of multi-moves to kill it guaranteed the life in the top left corner as well, which was something I had been struggling on how to achieve without having to use a single-stone move.

Tactical involvement often requires sticking to growth, often longer than one would wish with regard to the simultaneous developments elsewhere on the board. That may be a principal difference with one-move-per-turn games.

topazg wrote:The quest for life is actually remarkably hard for an invading stone. Not least because your opponent can make go-nonsense moves to kill it (such as contact playing a 3rd line stone on the 2nd line). Because the typical moves consist of extensions, it's remarkably hard to place killing moves without losing the momentum of multiple stones, and as your opponent has other groups around if its an invasion, that means you end up making less stones for your group per move than your opponent gets towards killing it and removing eyespace. All of which increases the importance of well placed early stones.

My thoughts exactly: invade late and you'll be too late

topazg wrote:I think strategically I'm still a fledgeling at this game, but the progress so far is intuitively strengthening my opinion that territorially placed early stones are more valuable than influential ones. The nature of the extension game makes it even harder to quickly mark out central territory than it is in Go I think.

I'm not quite sure there, but then, I'm not an expert by any measure in either game.

I understand organic games ('enspirited' mechanisms as I see them) quite well, conceptually, and I can often foresee the resolution and general nature of their intricacies. Apart from the multi-move implications that place it a different class to begin with, I see that Sygo strategy and tactics are less intricate than in Go. Go paints with a much finer brush in a much higher resolution. But that doesn' make Sygo strategy any less difficult and maybe even more slippery.

Nor does it make me any better as a player

.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm40 :white: 79 | :black: 96 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X 1 . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . 1 X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | 1 . . . . X X X . X X . . . . X O 2 . | $$ | 2 O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X . . 1 X . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . 2 O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, this has certainly been fun

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:59 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm42 :white: 79 | :black: 102 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X 1 . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . . 1 X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . X X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | X 1 . . . X X X . X X . . . . X O O . | $$ | O O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . 1 X X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X 1 . X X 1 . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:Well, this has certainly been fun

That's a first step

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm42 :white: 84 | :black: 102 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X 1 . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . . 1 X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . X X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | X 1 . . . X X X . X X . . . . X O O . | $$ | O O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . 1 X X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O 2 . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X 1 . X X 1 . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O 2 X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . 2 O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm44 :white: 84 | :black: 107 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . 1 X X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . X X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | X X 1 . . X X X . X X . . . . X O O . | $$ | O O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . 1 X X X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X X . X X X . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . 1 X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O O X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . 1 X O . . . . O O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

About 30 turns each is not unusual. "Fast food for thought" so to say

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:38 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm44 :white: 88 | :black: 107 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . 1 X X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . X X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | X X 1 2 . X X X . X X . . . . X O O . | $$ | O O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . O 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . 2 1 X X X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X X . X X X . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . 1 X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O O X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . 1 X O . . . . O O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm46 :white: 88 | :black: 111 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . . X . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X . . X X X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | X . . X X X . . X X . X . X X X O . . | $$ | X X X O 1 X X X . X X . . . . X O O . | $$ | O O O O O O O O O O O X . . . X . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O 1 . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . O X X . X X X . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . 1 X X . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O O X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . O . O . | $$ | . . . O O O X O O O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . 1 X X O . . . . O O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm massively outnumbered here but let's tie up the loose ends.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:30 am

opex · Post by **opex** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:44 am

illluck,

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:02 pm

Life In 19x19

Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling