Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

hyperpape · **#21**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jeromie · **#22**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One rules clarification: if we make it to final scoring does white receive any komi?

EdLee · **#23**

Not for players.

EdLee · **#24**

Hi Jeromie,

EdLee · **#25**

For luigi and players:
I'm unclear on one of the rules ( also, re: Jeromie's komi question):
please see post 14.

jeromie · **#26**

EdLee wrote:

Hi Jeromie,

luigi · **#27**

EdLee wrote:

For luigi and players:
I'm unclear on one of the rules ( also, re: Jeromie's komi question):
please see post 14.

See post 17.

jeromie, hyperpape, I'm a much worse Go player than you are, but, if it's too late for you guys to impartially agree on a komi value, I'll set it at 6 points and decree that the button be used to break ties.

jeromie · **#28**

luigi wrote:

EdLee wrote:

For luigi and players:
I'm unclear on one of the rules ( also, re: Jeromie's komi question):
please see post 14.

See post 17.

jeromie, hyperpape, I'm a much worse Go player than you are, but, if it's too late for you guys to impartially agree on a komi value, I'll set it at 6 points and decree that the button be used to break ties.

That sounds fine to me, but since I gain the advantage by using komi I will defer to hyperpape.

hyperpape · **#29**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi? I think that's reasonable. My gut reaction is that I'd expect komi in this game to be similar. But I could be wrong.

Bill Spight · **#30**

hyperpape wrote:

Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?

7 pt. komi with a button (area scoring) is equivalent to a 6.5 komi (territory scoring), with some exceptions, such as having a seki with an odd number of dame.

luigi · **#31**

hyperpape wrote:

Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?

No. The button is a special token which adds half a point to its owner. At his turn a player may take the button instead of making a board play or passing. Taking the button lifts any restriction on taking a ko or superko. The button can only be taken once by one of the players.

luigi · **#32**

Bill Spight wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?

7 pt. komi with a button (area scoring) is equivalent to a 6.5 komi (territory scoring), with some exceptions, such as having a seki with an odd number of dame.

That's interesting. I knew 7 komi under area scoring was the best approximation to 6.5 komi under territory scoring (in the sense that Black's average result should be the same in both cases), but I thought the button produced a different spread of results.

What other exceptions are there?

jeromie · **#33**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hyperpape · **#34**

C14, pawn.

(I'm on my phone and can't get diagrams to work).

jeromie · **#35**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hyperpape · **#36**

D6, pawn.

jeromie · **#37**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most common pro move in this situation, by far, is at a (48/52 on ps.waltheri.net, though most of those are older games). b has been played a few times, though, and is at least worth considering.

I'm a bit torn. I feel like the move at a is consistent with my desire to play a territorial game, but I don't like the direction things develop if I let black build up massive influence across the whole board while all of my stones are confined to two corners. The truth is that I feel far more comfortable working for a balance of territory and influence. I also think a is likely to lead to a large secure area for black where he can potentially play many kings.

So, change in direction. I'm going to play b because it's a viable move and it feels right. I like the balance between territory and influence it creates, and allowing that group to break out means I don't have two super heavy groups to manage. I do have to be careful about black moves against the lower left now, since I can't sacrifice that group, but I think I can manager. (I finally found some variations where white sacrifices the move I kinged earlier, but it actually came in a game where white played at a.)

EdLee · **#38**

Schachus · **#39**

EdLee wrote:

Bill Spight · **#40**

luigi wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?

7 pt. komi with a button (area scoring) is equivalent to a 6.5 komi (territory scoring), with some exceptions, such as having a seki with an odd number of dame.

That's interesting. I knew 7 komi under area scoring was the best approximation to 6.5 komi under territory scoring (in the sense that Black's average result should be the same in both cases), but I thought the button produced a different spread of results.

What other exceptions are there?

As you have pointed out, having seki with an odd number of dame is not an exception. I goofed. :oops:

But there are one way dame, which do not have to be played before the button. For instance, suppose that Black has a one way dame and a territory score of 6. Because she does not have to play the one way dame before the button is taken, she will get an area score of 7.5. After the button is taken, she will have a score of 6.5, and then she takes the one way dame for one more point. Also, there are ko fights that may not be finished until after the button is taken, and they may be exceptions, as well. In addition, it is possible to have positions on the board that are equivalent to a button (I have constructed one), so that who gets the button does not matter.

Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape

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