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[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W c . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . d O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've been playing from my phone for a few moves, which makes it hard to comment (or even move).

The first question was whether anyone would play a king in the first four moves. I narrowly chose not to. Next question is whether White will play a king here. I mentioned the Chen Yaoye-Ke Jie game where precisely this corner formation by White (after ,
, White a, Black b became weak. However, I think that's a rare occurrence in games I play.

One thing about playing the king is that it (potentially) changes the value of the c-d trade. Once White has one king, playing the second is free. Of course, if so, that doesn't imply the first king was a good idea.

Btw: I looked at this fuseki, and I see that Black usually prefers to approach in the upper right before playing . I don't think my comments depend on assuming we complete the joseki immediately.

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[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . @ , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Didn't really consider any other moves, but I did consider whether or not I should make this a king. I've looked over continuations from this position, and I can't find any variations where white sacrifices this group in the corner. This does have the downside of making this group impossible to sacrifice, but I don't think there are any circumstances where I would want to do that anyway.

The real question is what comes next. I assume black will continue the joseki with a or b, and then I have to decide whether to finish the joseki with c or tenuki to d or e. I would like to tenuki in this situation, but the kingo variant adds some extra value to playing at c. There is effectively a group tax, so being sealed in the corner comes with an extra penalty. Plus any stones I can add to a group that is already alive are worth an extra point, so I would like to retain the opportunity to grow that group. I'll have to decide whether reducing the value of his outer influence is worth giving up those gains.

True for any king move in kingo; nothing particular about this corner situation.

A downside, indeed. How much will depend on the rest of the game.

I'm curious which "continuations" Jeromie studied:
from joseki dictionaries or pro games ?
I feel it's too early and heavy to make these 2 W stones 'priceless'.
It means B has absolute ko threats here, versus without the king.

Which resource(s) did you search ? Joseki dictionaries or pro game database ?

I made a (non-exhaustive) search at ps.waltheri.net and looked at josekipedia as well. I'm sure that there is a game (or even many games!) where white did sacrifice the corner, but I looked through enough resources to feel it is probably uncommon and I think I can keep the group alive without taking a global loss.

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[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . a 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I considered a-d, all of which have been played in professional games. b was played by Go Seigen in a game against Sakata Eio, which made it especially tempting to try. But every game since 2000 that has ended up in this position has played a (according to ps.waltheri.net), and I think that is most likely to lead to the kind of territorial game for white that I am aiming for.

I decided a king was good enough for one side, might as well do it for the other as well.

My rule of thumb is that if a group is likely to come under attack, and I need flexibility, I will not play a king. I think this qualifies.

I wonder if I should have considered a low approach to white's stones on the left, given that his position has two kings. I think he was right to play kings where he did. That said, the value is less than two points, and I can't be sure a different approach wouldn't have lost more than that.

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[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most common pro move in this situation, by far, is at a (48/52 on ps.waltheri.net, though most of those are older games). b has been played a few times, though, and is at least worth considering.

I'm a bit torn. I feel like the move at a is consistent with my desire to play a territorial game, but I don't like the direction things develop if I let black build up massive influence across the whole board while all of my stones are confined to two corners. The truth is that I feel far more comfortable working for a balance of territory and influence. I also think a is likely to lead to a large secure area for black where he can potentially play many kings.

So, change in direction. I'm going to play b because it's a viable move and it feels right. I like the balance between territory and influence it creates, and allowing that group to break out means I don't have two super heavy groups to manage. I do have to be careful about black moves against the lower left now, since I can't sacrifice that group, but I think I can manager. (I finally found some variations where white sacrifices the move I kinged earlier, but it actually came in a game where white played at a.)

Possible:

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[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I would expect black to play the attachment on the bottom first, at least if dont take into account kingo speciallyties yet. Your variation feels just better for white than

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[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

(alternatively 4 at a), so my intuition is to punish white for not finishing the bottom first. Maybe it isnt really better though, cause in your game variation black gets sente, while in the other one white would have sente