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 Post subject: Teamovich 2
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:43 am 
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Teams are
Black:
redundant (1k)
threeve (10-9k)--AWOL :(
Jordus(8k?)
SinK (11k)
lesenv (13k)

White:
Marcus (2k)
robinz (10-9k)
Mnemonic (10k)
Rafa (13k)

We'll use the same rules as Teamovich 1.

BIC:
Along with your first suggestion, I'd like to see your general plan for the fuseki (i.e. we're going to play for influence and moyo, we're going to play thickly and for territory, or we're going to try for a fighting game). It really helps to have a consistent strategy in the opening.


Last edited by Redundant on Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 pm 
Gosei

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Go Team!

Crush the invaders! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Good luck and have fun everyone.

My Nomination:
Tengen.

Since it emphasises influence I guess a follow up of two 4-4 corners would make sense. I quite like the idea of taking a diagonal opening if it's offered and making it complicated and fighty. If diagonal isn't possible then I guess high extensions and big moyos should be the name of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Good luck everyone!


I like SinK's suggestion of playing for influence. But tengen is a pretty bold play imho, and I'm not particularly comfortable with that. Still, it could make for one hell of a game if we can pull it off.

Here is my suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This sets up a fuseki that I tend to play a lot:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The first time I played it was by mistake. It was pointed out to me during a review of the game, and I had actually intended to play a 4-3, 3-5 shimari a line higher instead of the 5-3, 4-5 shimari. But this fuseki does lead to interesting positions and I've had good feedback from some stronger players who have used it recently as well. It invites white to invade the top right corner, which is exactly what we want in this case. It aims to make a either a very large corner or, after white invades and lives small, to create a thick, influential position on the outside aiming to develop the right and/or top in big ways.

This fuseki was mentioned during the magicwand v. topazg Malkovich game by Bill Spight, and though it is apparently uncommon these days it is still reasonable and I've had good luck with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:52 pm 
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Glad this could happen and very happy to be a part of it :D I wish my opponents good luck and a lots of fun.

WIC
Their first move was a mistake. We are going to crush them easily


obs
Wait!?! I have to wait a whole week before I can post? Why did I make myself white again?

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #6 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Lesenv hasn't been on for a couple of days. I've sent him a PM about the game. If he hasn't suggested something in a day or so, I'll make a choice to keep/get the game going.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #7 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:42 am 
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I'm going to go ahead and choose a move now. Once I saw this suggested, I decided on it right away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For the team:
I'm mostly doing this because it's going to be fun. Now, a little bit on how to use tengen. First, Tengen is not for moyos. Odds are, if you're going to build a large moyo, the tengen stone will end up somewhere in the middle of the moyo. In effect, it's -1 point.

Tengen is for:
  • Fighting. Tengen gives a ladder breaker for all four corners. Also, in a big fight, we have aerial support.
  • Invading. Again, we always have a friendly stone to run toward in the center.
  • Mirror go. I'm definitely not going to pick more than a couple moves of mirror go, though.

Also, tengen makes it very difficult for white to build a moyo. If they do, we already have a reducing move in place.

I hope this hasn't been too much input on your future moves, but I've always noticed that most kyus don't know how to use a tengen stone.


Observers:
This is going to be fun! :D


Last edited by Redundant on Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:04 pm 
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White internal:

My suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm2 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I know I tend to keep falling back on my preferred openings, so let's try something new. I've never tried a 5-4 point before, but it feels like it agrees with the way I like to play. Plus I feel an influence-based stone is best against tengen, as it works to negate black's intentions. Anyway, let's try to cause some early fighting if possible - this means I will suggest some terrible moves (as if I wouldn't anyway...), but I'm looking to learn something from this game.

Disclaimer: I know precisely zero joseki starting from the 5-4 point, so if that makes the captain nervous them I'm happy for this not to be chosen ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #9 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:48 pm 
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WIC:
Arg, what? I've never played against a tengen opening before. I've played it once or twice but only for the lolz and when I was much weaker. Now from what little knowledge I have about the Tengen opening:

Since the Tengen does not secure any territory at all it is sort of a "wasted" move. The game (at least at higher levels then ours) focuses on whether black can make his stone work or not. I guess this can be done in two ways: Black builds a huge moyo forcing us to invade, or he can start a huge running fight where he can use his extra stone in the middle to get a lot of profit while we get chased. Therefore I suggest the following strategy:

    1. Playing thick, influence oriented plays to of set the possible black moyo.
    2. Do not try to establish a own moyo! Black already has the key point for a moyo based strategy and he can even start a running fight by invading.
    3. Try not to get pincered! This may be impossible, but most pincers leave you with the option of getting settle in the corner while black gets a good wall or starting a running fight. We don't want either.

I definitely do not what to end up like this (Sorry Chew :sad: )
Maybe our captain could elaborate on my rumblings :)

My move
Edit: got ninjaed, but since robinz asked some question I will go into more detail. The 4-5 excludes a lot of influence while neglecting the corner, but it is flexible. If we need territory in a pinch we can make a shimari or even play this when we are invaded.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 , . . 7 . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

robinz wrote:
Disclaimer: I know precisely zero joseki starting from the 5-4 point.

I know a few. I'm not too concerned with the 3-4 invasion because we could play something like this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 6 1 0 . . . .
$$ | . . 5 4 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X 1 . . . . .
$$ | 5 O O X O . . . .
$$ | . 3 X O . O . . .
$$ | . 4 X O . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

We get a good wall with some eye potential. The influence will compete with the tengen stone and we don't really have to worry about our group getting attacked because it is stable. Blacks group is enclosed pretty good and will not do anything for the rest of the game.
I'm a bit worried about the 33 invasion. There is a decent joseki that I know, but it depends on a ladder. :sad:
robinz wrote:
Anyway, let's try to cause some early fighting if possible

I have a feeling fighting would benefit black, I could be wrong of course (Captain?) :)

At least this is going to be an interessting game :tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #10 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:58 pm 
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More thoughts
If we decide to play in the corner there are several other option instead of the 4-5
1. The 3-3 and the 3-4: I don't think playing territorially is the way to go. Black gets really nice moves to press us down and build influence.
2. The 3-6 and 5-5: I've played the 5-5 before and don't think it can compete with the 4-5 and I have no idea what to do with the 3-6.
3. The 3-5: It also favors influence while neglecting the corner but it is not directed to the center but towards a side. What I mean is that we probably won’t want the play the taisha because of the tengen as a ladder breaker or any other squeeze play because they tend to start running fights. This leaves us with the keima press joseki. We would be building a wall toward the side so we should probably extend a some point, but that would mean we are building a own moyo which seems bad to me because black can gain a lot by invading.
4. The 4-4: The 4-4 is the only influence play left. I don't think ni-ren-sai would work well, because we cannot go for san-ren-sai and the 4-5 opens up a lot of option that we don't get with a hoshi. On the other side I am leaning really hard at playing cross positions at the moment, and in my experience that works better with symmetrical plays. So I was thinking about a 44 point as the 4th play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 With the game going something like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now applying the 123 principal, we could play the 44 point first, see what black does with their 3rd move and then choose a favorable position for the 4-5. My main reason why I don't nominate the 44 is that I want to give my Captain several options, and I think my other Teammate would nominate the 44.
5. Playing in the middle: Yes, I also thought briefly about this. I did not like it because the game would start to degenerate into a ddk slaughter fest that nobody wants to watch :) In addition I don't know any decent way to approach the tengen stone.

The move I'm nomination is the 4-6. If they invade at the 4-4 we can double approach and if they try the 3-4 maybe this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . .
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . 5 . . .
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

If I write too much just say so, but we are a team and I want everybody to be on the same page :) Also, I think this game will be epic

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #11 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:16 am 
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hi

sorry, i didn't have internetaccess for about a week. now i'm in, hope the internet-issue is solved.
good game, everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #12 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:49 am 
Gosei

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Let's see what Rafa has to say. :)

WIC:
So, to be honest, I rarely play against a tengen opening. If I had a plan for the opening, it's gone now. ;)

We're going to have to be aware of any and all ladders. Best way to fight ladders ... keep it simple!

Am I right in assuming my two suggestions to choose from so far are the 5-4 and the 6-4?

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #13 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:00 am 
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Marcus wrote:

WIC:
Am I right in assuming my two suggestions to choose from so far are the 5-4 and the 6-4?


Yes, it looks that way. My suggestion was certainly the 5-4.

But I must say that I was hoping that, by getting in first, I'd get to inject the possibility of a little craziness, assuming the other two would suggest more "normal" moves. Mnemonic though clearly decided to "out-crazy" me :twisted: I'd hope Rafa would suggest something like a 4-4 or 3-4, but if he doesn't want to then I'd be happy to change my suggestion to one of these. Not sure if that would be allowed though.

(Certainly, the rest of your post implies you do want to play something more normal, and I respect that. Like I said, if I'd been coming up with 3 options on my own, I'd have made sure at least 1 of them was sane and boring :))

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #14 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:00 am 
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WIC:
robinz wrote:
But I must say that I was hoping that, by getting in first, I'd get to inject the possibility of a little craziness, assuming the other two would suggest more "normal" moves. Mnemonic though clearly decided to "out-crazy" me :twisted: I'd hope Rafa would suggest something like a 4-4 or 3-4, but if he doesn't want to then I'd be happy to change my suggestion to one of these. Not sure if that would be allowed though.

(Certainly, the rest of your post implies you do want to play something more normal, and I respect that. Like I said, if I'd been coming up with 3 options on my own, I'd have made sure at least 1 of them was sane and boring :))

Have you ever played the 4-5? The 4-5 is a very sensible option in my opinion. Yes, it neglects the corner and yes it is asymmetrical, but if you know these properties and don't mind them, then there is nothing wrong. After you get over the craziness and exclude dan-level trick plays, the 4-5 is actually pretty easy to handle, definitely easier than the 3-4. As a bonus, most ddk don't know what to do with them :mrgreen:
Now this is the first time I ever played the 4-6, so I don't know what to expect :) but I don't think it is a particularly awful choice. The reason I chose the move I did is listed in the post above, based on the strategy in the first post. I could be way off, of course, but as long as nobody comes up with something better I'm sticking with it. :mrgreen:

Lastly, sane and boring is for the weak :D (Although that would mean us :scratch: )

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #15 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:13 am 
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My thoughts on so far.
WIC
Hmm, i was expecting something unusual from black due to the game setup, i only saw 2 games starting with tengen, one of them was actually me playing vs a weaker player so on a turn based server in that game i actually played a keima near the black stone on my first move because i thought black wanted to fight so i gave him the honor. On this game i though we should play something simple like 4-4. other move than that which i thought at first would be the 4-5.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #16 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:43 am 
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White internal:

Mnemonic wrote:
WIC:
Have you ever played the 4-5? The 4-5 is a very sensible option in my opinion. Yes, it neglects the corner and yes it is asymmetrical, but if you know these properties and don't mind them, then there is nothing wrong. After you get over the craziness and exclude dan-level trick plays, the 4-5 is actually pretty easy to handle, definitely easier than the 3-4. As a bonus, most ddk don't know what to do with them :mrgreen:


As I said in my first post, I've not actually played it yet. I don't get to play many (or indeed any, lately) even games over the board, and online I get too scared to play anything new. (And I'm off online play at the moment anyway.) I think a game like this is a perfect opportunity to try something new - as I said, I have a feeling it may suit me. But if our esteemed captain Marcus doesn't feel comfortable with it, then that's fine - particularly given my lack of any joseki knowledge. (Actually, it's not quite true to say that I know none - if black later approaches at the 3-4 and we tenuki then I'm on reasonably familiar ground, and for this reason it probably wouldn't be hard for me to come up with something at least half-decent as a local response. Anyway, as you say, the black players would probably be in at least as unfamiliar territory for them as we would.)

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #17 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:00 am 
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Incidentally, is there any reason why the caption below the diagram for move 1 implies that White gets only 0.5 komi? Did someone compute that the white team was a stone stronger than the black one, or something? :scratch:

(I doubt it's going to end up mattering, but just in case it does, it's best to sort this out early.)

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #18 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:13 am 
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Woops, I copy and pasted it from another thread. Komi should be normal (6.5 or 7.5, depending on rule set).

**Now fixed

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #19 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:21 pm 
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WIC:
Already I'm debating over choices here. Rafa, please let me know which move you want me to consider alongside 5-4 and 6-4. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovich 2
Post #20 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:18 pm 
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WIC
I think we are taking too long :) To avoid confusion I will always try to emphasize my nomination (maybe we should all do this). If my captain wants my opinion on the move choices so far, look below. If that's too confusing, or might influence your choice in a bad direction I will stop. :) Also, I feel I'm repeating myself.

Some more WIC
I wanted to propose the 4-5 myself and still think it is one of if not the best play. I've played it extensively and am very comfortable with it. I never played the 4-6 but I will rely on my 4-5 and 4-4 knowledge to try and carry me through. About the 44, I have no problem with it but find it boring :) If anything else is nominated and played I would really like to know why since I then would have to rework my overall strategy.

4-5: The safe play
4-6: The risky play, but the one with the wtf aspect (they played tengen, let’s show then we're not scared :) )
4-4: The ubersafe play. It feels like a pro move. Calmly playing a very flexible move and putting the pressure on black to show what he's got. But I'm nowhere near pro and playing calm isn't my style (like roughly every amateur)

And even more WIC
This hide tag is just to scare/annoy my opponents à la Magicwand :)

But if some observer with more knowledge about playing tengen than me wants to comment on my thoughts, I'd be highly interested.

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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