Actually, coming back to it and reading Mnemonic's post, I think I rather like his idea to attack. It's sure going to get messy, but there's no reason not to think that we could come well out of any complicated fight

But, to give our captain other options, I'm going to suggest B15, which Rafa says is the joseki move, and certainly looks sensible. (I'm not strong enough to fully know why this is better than the solid connection at B16, if indeed it is, but it looks useful for eyeshape, and may allow us to extend further down the left.) When we next get sente (Rafa's joseki seems to end in gote for us though, and I don't think we can omit using to shore up the group somehow, or it'll be hideously weak), we could use it to either take the final corner, or to come back to the top right to do something with the 4-5 stone that, as Mnemonic says, would then be beginning to look a little unhappy. (But I still think this position would be OK for us.)

I'm not really sure what is best, and already feel well out of my depth here, so I'm really just trying to give our captain options to choose from. I'll feel a bit more into this game when a good local fight breaks out, which it may do soon

Both B15 and H16 are joseki moves

After the normal joseki the white group is actually pretty stable. It has access to the corner, the side, the center and enough eye space for two eyes. I'm pretty certain that black couldn't kill us if we tenukied twice (maybe even 3 times, but don't quote me on that ). Anyway if you really want to play an extension then the one shown by Rafa feels a bit over concentrated to me. I'd rather play a 3 or even 4 line extension, but since there is an open corner in the direction of our group we should take it. It works well with our group, is the last corner available and a black stone there would just build his moyo and open the option of harassing our top group.

I come strong and opinionated not because I want to bully you into playing my game, but because I think an honest discussion would help us in deciding the best play and we would probably learn more from each other than just by nomination random moves. So if you disagree with anything I say or have any questions please post them. I'm also only a ddk and may very well be wrong about everything I say

Ah thx, doesn't really help me because it is way above my level I first saw it in the BB game and have since used it a couple times with decent results, but mostly because my opponent chickened out and didn't fight. I don't think this is going to happen here: if red gets at least one acceptable fighting move he going to chose it (at least that is what he's done so far. I wonder if his soldiers are comfortable with the way things are going )

Oh yes, I think you're right. I'm pretty sure that when I referred to things being "hideously weak", I was staring at the position on my board with only the 3 white stones there, forgetting that we'll have played at B15 in the position we're talking about

And I don't feel that you're bullying me or anything, so don't worry about it - I fully agree that discussion is good If I've not been saying a lot recently, it's probably because you sound like you know a lot more about what's going on here than I do (and also because I seem to have been a bit off go lately, hopefully this game will bring me back though ). In most of my games I just boringly play 4-4 points, and opponents usually play 4-4s and 3-4s. I've certainly never come across either a tengen opening or a 5-4 in any of the games I've played, not even from my opponents. And I've never really bothered learning any joseki, other than a few which I see in my games regularly. So I'm far from convinced I know what's going on in this one.

As I said, I hope to be of more use to the team as the game progresses, but I feel like a bit of an observer right now

B15 is no longer considered joseki (but maybe it's still played rarely. I've never liked it at any rate) afaik.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually i forgot about the move at 10 , so i will nominated this time.

Okay, sorry for all the delays. I just didn't want to post yet another move without going over the suggestions and my choices for the two previous moves. Let's go back to move 6:

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[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll touch on the other three moves labeled a-c first.

a) This is a pretty normal move. It makes a decent sized corner and starts some fairly normal and easy joseki patterns. I could just as easily have cosen this over the move I did choose. However, Black would likely make a wall facing towards the last empty corner, in support of either taking the last corner himself, or supporting an attack on that corner.

b) I like this pincer a lot, but I wasn't sure I wanted to pincer at this stage of the game. Black is looking to start a fight, and this pincer does just that. Note that our 5-4 stone is not leaning towards the top side, so it's of only marginal help in a fight up top. Black has tengen support making a running fight pretty difficult on us.

For what it's worth, lately I've preferred to pincer on the same line as the stone I'm pincering ... so G16 or H16 would be my choice in a real-time game, if I decided to pincer.

c) I was leaning towards this move before Mnemonic changed his mind. I wanted a strong presence on the left side of the board, and the outside attachment gives us a good set of options there (though Black can complicate things, of course, and the variations could lead somewhere completely different).

) I chose this move because it emphasizes the left side, puts some pressure on the approaching black stone, and doesn't make many waves. It's peaceful when Black is purposefully trying to start a fight. These are the kinds of moves I want to try and play in the face of Black's aggression ... we want to pick moves that develop empty areas of the board while Black jumps at us trying to frighten us into a premature fight. Eventually, we will fight, but I want stones all over the board first, so we have support of our own in face of that tengen.

On to Move

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[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There wasn't much choice here. I don't like the move at a at all, as it allows White to be cut easily. I considered taking Mnemonic's suggestion for taking the final corner, but even that doesn't feel like enough compensation for giving Black such a tasty portion of the upper left corner.

Finally, we come to the latest move:

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[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . a . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here's the deal on a and b ...

a) OMG SO COMPLICATED! Heh, just kidding (about the panic, not about the complexity). This falls back to what I mentioned earlier about move 6 ... I don't think the pincer is right for now. Black is pushing buttons, trying to get a rise out of our team. They're jumping in and saying "Fight us! We're breaking up your top, yo!" ... but, the top is not the primary direction of play for our 5-4 stone in the upper right. Sure, it's a big area (every area is big right now ... we're only at ) ... but not only has black attacked our stones early, they've neglected a corner. In my opinion, the left side, being the most open area of the board right now, is the most important for making points. As such, I want to make plays that emphasize the left right now. Perhaps we're walking away from an opportunity to test Black's reading and fighting skill, but I think that's premature.

b) This is the move I really wish I could play. It's solid and makes the White group very hard to attack ... but it gives Black too much up top and in the upper left corner. Black gets away with no weaknesses and we don't even get a decent endgame shape.

) The game move makes the White group a little easier to attack, but provides a couple additional advantages over the move at b. First, it's bigger than it looks. Still small, by opening standards (it's on the 2nd line), but big enough to play during a fight like this. Second, it threatens big endgame points later on, while depriving Black of easy endgame points in the corner. So, there's some future investment involved here. Finally, between our B18 and the white 5-4 stone, the top area is now less important as an area for expanding (in my opinion) than the left side. Black still owes a move to be a stable group, and our group is in prime shape to take advantage of the left side, when the time comes.

So, I know this has been long, but I hope it's given at least a bit of an insight on what I think our strategy should be to combat Black's hyper-agressive style so far.

I'm trying to make sure I don't give too much to my soldiers, but sometimes I feel like I'm not giving them enough direction. Can anyone comment on whether I'm saying too much/too little to my soldiers?

hm, that's hard. do we defend or do we attack?
i'd like to attack, but i don't think we can:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . a c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . b 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a,b,c look like they're too close to our group/too low.

I know just what you mean ... it's crazy hard

I figured this would be less of a dilemma with teammates closer to my strength, but it's worse, because small (even accidental) hint drops can give a lot away. I consider the primary value of Malkovich games to be in the instructional / teaching content, and Teamoviches are just as much as others in this regard - To me, I would consider that you are doing great as a team leader, and pitching it about perfectly

No. C12 is a crippling weakness in this shape, and white really needs to add a move on the left soon, or black will get it in sente.

I think you're doing fine, it's about the same as red's doing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . x . . , . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems like the worst white can do to our group is snatch out base away in which case we can simply run towards our tengen stone so I am looking for something big and ideally aggressive. a,b and c are my thoughts. a looks nice mostly because it turns the top into our area and gives us something to fight with if they do play around but when I think about where white will want to play I'm thinking that they'd like to take the bottom left taking that is pretty big but does give them a sente to attack us and since b neutralises the left side while still keeping sente that it the one I'm going for.

I nominate:

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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really thought I posted this last night, but here it sits in the post editor... Anyway, a couple of these moves have already been talked about by my teammates but I'll leave my original comments from yesterday.



I was really expecting white to play a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My first thought is to just finish the sequence with a move around a or b here, but I'm having to really fight the urge to pick a fight with x... It seems like it gets messy fast, and I'm not 100% sure we'll come out favorably or even equal in all the variations. Also, playing x now eliminates the aji around y later should we eventually end up with a strong position on the left.

Both a and b seem to support invading the top right corner soon. I'm also thinking c might be a good way to threaten white's base on the left and push them out toward tengen while making a position of our own on the left. And we could always take the remaining corner at d. So many options! I'm not committing to anything until tomorrow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . y O , X . . b . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, it is tomorrow now. I kind of want to second SinK's move (my 'c'), but in the interest of giving more choices to our captain I'll nominate my 'b':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . 3 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is similar to lesenv's suggestion, but one space closer to our group. This closer extension is more difficult for white to harass. It also prepares for the followups at e or f. I expect white to invest another move on the left, but not sure what. If they go ahead and take the last corner we can easily invade the left, and if they play along the side we get to play first in the corner. w10 means we won't get much territory on the top because they can monkey jump underneath which is why I chose a high extension instead of low, in order to create more influence to work with tengen.

The 3-point jump on the fourth line allows white to jump right in the middle and make things difficult, so I do not prefer it to the 2-space jump. Granted that the marked stones might make this more difficult on white than if they weren't there, but it's still enough to make me want to play a safer move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O Y Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . 4 . 3 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT: resolve ambiguity with move labels

Finally a mistake from white. Also, sentence fragment from redundant. The aji here is not very good for white. I'll have to look into whether we can play the left invasion to use the aji right away, or if we should settle on top first. I'm leaning toward C12 right away.

SinK did a pretty good job of explaining why to play this move. Largely, I agree with his ideas.

'the hell? Never seen that before, but I guess it's playable, especially with the weakness in our group. I have no clue how to answer this. Run out? Counter pincer? Need to do some reading. Teammates, any good ideas?

Nope, you're not the only one. I had much the same thoughts as you. I'm not sure if by "counter-pincer" you mean a play in the C10 region, or a pincer against their upper group like the H16 you suggested last time. Both seem tempting - but so too does just settling our own group, somehow. Of course, it's somewhat healthier now after our last move, but black's latest puts some pressure back on.

It would also seem to be more in keeping with Marcus' intentions (judging from his previous comments to the team) to play something simple and solid rather than going for some huge fight. But I have no idea which move to play. A move which just settles our group in gote seems like a really bad idea at this stage, but if we can do so in sente I'll be happy. It feels like it should be possible when black has weak groups on either side, but where to play, I don't know. I guess it's time to get my reading hat on, but I'm not sure if mine is strong enough to be able to come to any conclusions