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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #61 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:47 pm 
Gosei
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Thoughts on Go Back Principles:

I would propose that we stick to the first played line if at all possible, going back to it after a go-back seems to be <also> not an improvement (though obviously it might take some moves to establish this). What're others' feelings?

My reasoning is that tonnes of moves are fine in the opening, so clearly identifying and go-backing mistakes seems more important than contemplating the hypothetical "best" of two even but different results. Mistakenly or correctly evaluating results as not even is of course, interesting, but I think we probably also want to keep the splitting to a minimum as well (avoid having lots of rather inactive games).

On the diagram vs. SGF front:
What if we keep playing moves as diagrams (very easy and clean looking) but post an updated and complete (ie with variations and verdict) SGF periodically? Perhaps after a go back becomes established/refuted.

Edit: With respect to the posting of sequences for forcing moves or well-established joseki - I think this is fine. Going back on a joseki variation or deviation and forcing a superior result seems interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #62 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:33 am 
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It was not my intention to derail this game as it seems I did. If I did can you please indicate where my postings are not in line with your proposals. Feel free to go back there, repair my interference and proceed from there. From your post it is not clear to me when it is acceptable to change a previous move. Is it only after some sort of consensus that the move was wrong? If so, who is consensus?

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #63 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:39 am 
Tengen
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I'm happy with that. Is the game here then?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #64 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:21 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

We seem here courtesy of cyclops, though Ed at one point posted a local variation that went longer.
My move "here" at the moment is rather C15 at B15, so I'll let someone else continue on this sequence...

Edit: Hang on, my claim that this is our "original" sequence seems just a little spurious. As you will.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #65 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:12 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #66 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:51 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #67 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:27 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White's attacking. We did play all those fourth line moves. "Chase with the knight's move," so they say.

Also on the proverbial front - "profit while attacking." White can bring his lower left group out to the centre, and perhaps start consolidating top while harrying black's group.

Admittedly, white has concerns elsewhere- bottom right shimari is becoming a little lonely. Black's moyo plays on bottom and right are as yet unchallenged.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #68 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:44 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Without a working ladder, it makes sense to cut, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #69 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:34 am 
Gosei
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Some food for thought.
I hadn't deeply considered topazg's move. I would have moved out peacefully as black, because it seems to me danger favours white, here. If black can aggressively settle that group, excellent!

The ladder is black's and the (eg.) shoulder hit's value cannot break it.

Even with a good ladder, I feel pressured here as black, so I might continue like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 What happens next?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
(Sorry about the broken shape, Ed :P. It's still reducing liberties!)

Seems this one would be a bad idea even if we had played the marked ladder breaker before :w20:, ignoring B4 and the black group's status:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 O 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . W . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . B X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Looking forward to the inevitable go-back.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #70 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:41 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 What happens next?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My suggested continuation :)

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #71 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:55 pm 
Gosei
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More food for thought:
Does white want to start with D8 double sente now? Why? Does this change how D12 and D14 stones will continue?


Harder question:
As a point of contrast, might we have been able to use :b21: cut in another way?

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Post #72 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:46 pm 
Honinbo
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W would fight with B. My first feeling is this fight is good for W, so :b21: was too much. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #73 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:37 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #74 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:44 am 
Tengen
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EdLee wrote:
W would fight with B. My first feeling is this fight is good for W, so :b21: was too much. :) ...


Agreed, the loose ladder works for White, which means Black doesn't have time to save the cutting stone, which means he shouldn't have played it in the first place.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c 3 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . a . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:w22:, "a" and "b" all look interesting - I'm thinking :w22: is best because Black "c" is not only a double wing, but a pretty vulnerable point in White's formation at the top.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #75 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:03 am 
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topazg wrote:

Agreed, the loose ladder works for White,

@topatg: err i am lost : what loose ladder ?

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #76 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:35 am 
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on the game:
for your entertainment i will provide a kyuish analysis of the situation.

Common sense will probably be hurt in the process .


Here are my kyusih ideas more or less in the order they come to mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O a c . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . , O . . . . , . . . . f , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I have seen several time in this very forum the attachment at G16 that i really want to try here but here i think it would hurt the B group too much. Same thing for a reduction at H16 or G16
These days i am realizing that those groups can indeed be killed or at least be surrounded in a most awkward fashion. i am trying to take better care of them.
in addition if it where strong the sans sans invasion on top would be possible
so b (B10) is the idea to try to strengthen B group in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . , . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

80% of the time i think at 7k level W would answer with :w24: @ B9 ,so B would get stronger in sente but in fact i guess here W should ignore. and take sente himself

I would love to find a way for B to strenghten its right group in sente because then i would be more comfortable poking the upper side but i cant find one. i do not dare atacking the top wth that B group. Maybe its cowardly

The second thing that comes to my mind is the framework junction at E6. but thanks to B4 W group is not in danger and H3 is still available for W to reduce the bottom so i do not think i t buils on a grand scale

L 5 (e in first diag) is a way to developp the bottom but its slow, does nothing to W an maybe does not really prevent H3. iam fond of this kind of move those days
P10 looks like good shape but slow too.

So iam not sure what to suggest, playing on topagz suggestion for W doesnt appeal to me for B

I think as W i would be tempted to capp the right side at P10.

So to prevent that ill finally vote for p10.

This is my :b23: move, please correct it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . , . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #77 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:32 am 
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@topazg I'm not sure about your 22. If white does not reinforce 20, it is awkward enough that I think it should not have been played in the first place. Go back.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

'A' is possible as well, but I think 22 is better in this position. It has become very popular in this shape in the past few years.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #78 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:35 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this sounds natural and safe, tenuki seem dangerous, :w24:@B13 would still gut us but i dont see a way to avoid that

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #79 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:45 am 
Dies with sente

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Black looks overconcentrated.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Back - Game 2
Post #80 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:13 pm 
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@Mr. Mormon
I think it is inevitable for black not to get a conventionally "good" joseki result here compared to approaching a white corner on a much more open board. However, building a safe group here now saves doing it later, when it would presumably be even harder. It may be interesting to compare this result with nagano & topazg's speculation regarding the 3-3 invasion follow-up.

Anyway;
I feel nagano captured the local situation now elegantly.

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