It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:24 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:10 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5539
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1103
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
As a low dan, I've often wondered exactly what it is that higher dans know that I don't. Is it just more stuff? That is, if I keep playing and learn more tesujis and more josekis, etc, will I become like them? Does experience add up?

Or it is something qualitative? Do they grok something about the game that I don't? If play for another ten years, will I just have ten more years of 1D experience? ( Back as a young chess player, I knew an old guy who had played chess for 26 years. He was - to put it mildly - terrible. He used to say "I've had one year's expereience - twenty-six times." )

Is it cumulative or qualitative? I've devised a way to test this theory. If it is just cumulative experience, then I should to be able to gather a handful of players about my strength, and collectively we should be able to match stronger players. If not, then, well, we should lose. I call it 'Gang Malkovich' - a bunch of lower-ranked players ganging up on a stronger player.

I'm starting this registration thread for those of you who want to try it.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:11 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5539
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1103
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
For a test run, I asked Topazg, Daniel_the_smith, Dusk Eagle, and Kirby to join me. We haven't explicitly discussed all the rules, but I assume that a move will be by voting. It should be interesting to see how one 1D explains to another what the best move is.

Our opponent will be the terror of L19 Malkovich games: Magicwand.

We will be playing here: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3464

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #3 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:56 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 581
Location: Shanghai, China
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 100
Rank: IGS 2 dan
How do you propose to finish this game in a reasonable period of time if you are going to have the players vote on every move?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #4 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:57 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
It looks an interesting idea to me, but, having now seen the thread with the actual game, I'm very surprised to see that you're playing it as a handicap game. Surely, the hypothesis you're testing is that a bunch of 1-dans (or approximately so), by combining their knowledge (which presumably covers a considerably broader range than that of any one of the players individually), can be collectively as strong as a 4-dan? In that case, surely the only fair test is to have an even game?

I suppose that, done this way, if "the gang" loses then it will be a very convincing refutation of the hypothesis above, but if it wins it won't really tell us anything. (One experiment hardly proves a theory anyway, I know - but still, it would seem to me to be more in keeping with Joaz's idea if the game had no handicap. Perhaps I misunderstand his intentions though.)

EDIT: I now see that Daniel_the_smith has independently raised exactly the same point over on the game thread :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #5 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:30 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
exception of Topazg i can give everyone else 2 stone.
it is only fair that we play 2 stone.
just because they gangup doesnt mean that they are stronger.
it only means that strongest player will likely be voted out.

if i make the game complicated then strongest player will be non-factor.

Question: what happens if all pick different moves.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #6 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:49 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Magicwand wrote:
exception of Topazg i can give everyone else 2 stone.
it is only fair that we play 2 stone.


I don't dispute that, but the whole point of this game, surely, is to see if the "gang of five" are collectively stronger than any of their individual members? At least, this is how I understand Joaz's initial post above.

Quote:
just because they gangup doesnt mean that they are stronger


This may be so, but the point of the exercise seems to be to find out whether or not it is. And, if they beat you in this 2-stone game (and I'm certainly not saying they necessarily will :D), that won't tell us anything, as (as far as I can tell from having observed previous Malkovich games) most if not all of your opponents are capable individually of beating you at 2 stones, if the game went in their favour.

No disrespect intended at all, of course, MW (I know full well that I'd need about 15 stones against you to even have a chance :lol:). I'm perfectly happy to sit back and enjoy watching this game as it is - I'm just surprised that it's being played at a handicap given what Joaz says was his motivation for the game. Good luck to all the players, and may the best man or gang win :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #7 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:14 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2116
Location: Silicon Valley
Liked others: 152
Was liked: 330
Rank: 2d AGA
GD Posts: 1193
KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
If the five of us work together well, my best guess is that we should play Magicwand even or perhaps take white.

Don't think of it as the "bad" players outvoting the "good" players. Think of it as we have 5 chances to stop ourselves from doing something stupid, which, at our level, describes the vast majority of mistakes.

If we lose a 2 stone game, that would definitely be significant evidence against my theory. We will see!!

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com


This post by daniel_the_smith was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #8 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:22 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1758
Liked others: 378
Was liked: 375
Rank: 4d
Magicwand wrote:
Question: what happens if all pick different moves.

If we all come up with different moves, we'll have to discuss it quite a bit. Someone will probably compromise anyway if we reach such a point. We're kind of sorting out the exact details as we go.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich - registration
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:56 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5539
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1103
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
The first test run has been made, ( viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3464 ) and it was not a pretty sight.

Two things quickly became obvious.
1) A gang of 1Ds is not as strong as a 4D. Indeed, there seems to be no improvement at all. There may even be a decrease in strength!
2) Communication and organization is far more difficult than we expected.

...and furthermore, surprisingly...

3) It is not fun at all.

So we resigned at move 42.


Unfortunately, the question of quality vs quantity was not answered. The communication and organizational difficulties prevented us from adequately combining our collective 1D knowledge, so there is no way to know if that collection would have been significantly stronger.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group