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 Post subject: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:14 pm 
Tengen
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This is Magicwand vs Topazg, Daniel_the_smith, Dusk Eagle, Kirby, and myself.

For an explanation of this, please see: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3463


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


GL and GG, Magicwand, it's your move.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:32 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
this should be intresting....

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #3 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm 
Tengen
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In a 2 stone game, I pick a 4-4 if my opponent does, purely so it doesn't give him the only "ideal approach" move. It's probably just personal preference. I'll go with the majority, but D16 appeals.

Should we divide the labour a bit to our strengths? So a couple of people spend a disproportionate time working out aji and L+D on magicwand's groups for example?

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #4 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:41 pm 
Tengen
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For our next move, D16 looks good to me too. But I'll go with whatever reasonable move you guys want to make - as long as it is in the open corner.

BTW, I'm assuming that this is egalitarian. I happen to have been the organizer, but after that, nobody is in charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:54 pm 
Lives in gote
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This will certainly be interesting, but I have the feeling it's going to take an eternity to finish.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #6 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:55 am 
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cdybeijing wrote:
This will certainly be interesting, but I have the feeling it's going to take an eternity to finish.

I have the same concern and therefore hope that you can agree to some not-so-strict rules for cooperation. I would not have it as a prerequisite that everyone judges the situation before a move can be made. I would rather set some time limit, like three days, and within that time interval, a move will be made. If a player does not express his thoughts by then, the move will be made nevertheless.

However, it is your game and these are just my 2 cents from a viewer's perspective. Everything you decide on will be fine for me ... looking forward to the game and the discussions.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #7 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:02 am 
Gosei
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Same move for me, too. Let's make all the corners equal, not giving him any unfinished-corner approaches.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I guess that makes a majority right there, so hopefully no one minds if I go and post this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #8 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:57 am 
Gosei
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That move is fine with me.

Can we just post our deliberations without hide tags, since it's unlikely we'll be saying things Magicwand doesn't know?

Should be a fun game, good luck to Magicwand.

I think he'll need it.

Two stones? I think all of us together are very likely to win at two stones. In my two stone game I had a decent shot of it. In Kirby's games vs. Magicwand I think most of us notice his mistakes as they happen (being an outside observer is worth 8 stones or something like that). In this sort of game, the primary benefit of the "gang" is that we can point out each other's errors (see, for example, Arimaa's "one vs the mob" series of games). At our level we still lose most games by making bad moves as opposed to missing brilliant moves. At least I do.

So, I propose that for more consequential moves we wait up to a day for a dissenting opinion to show up even if three people agree. If four agree, just make the move (someone may be tied up for a few days, that shouldn't halt the game). It's absolutely essential that we avoid every bad move we possibly can. I also propose that everyone should try to study the position before looking at the suggestions of the other "gang" members, as that may very well bias you or short-circuit your thought process, causing you to miss something you ordinarily wouldn't.

One technique to make the best group decisions possible is to thoroughly discuss the problem before proposing solutions (see: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ka/hold_off_on_ ... ions/). We might be able to apply that in complex situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #9 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:16 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i usually play knight approach but...
i think i need to create a situation where they dont agree.
something different and see how they disagree

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #10 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:33 am 
Tengen
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Magicwand likes making complicated situations with fighting and aji. I see no reason to allow a double approach, so I'd keep things simple with O16.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #11 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:08 am 
Gosei
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I always O16 in this position in handicap games, and I've had a 7d tell me it was correct. I don't like to play high twice on the same board, though, because white eventually gets sente and undercuts one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #12 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:10 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
I always O16 in this position in handicap games, and I've had a 7d tell me it was correct. I don't like to play high twice on the same board, though, because white eventually gets sente and undercuts one of them.


He's doing it too, so if necessary, we can play that game just as well as him :)

On that note, if he leaves it alone, we can also pincer it quite effectively too. It's up to us to rip sente out of his dead hands I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #13 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:20 am 
Gosei
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I might be overcompensating for the fact that my high extensions seem to die a lot around strong players...

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #14 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:18 am 
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I think it would defeat the point of joaz's research if you let magicwand read the comments. One of the questions under investigation is whether 5 low dans can come up with things that a high Dan can't see.


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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #15 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:00 am 
Honinbo

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We could consider a counter-approach at O3; I suspect MW will approach the bottom left next. Despite that, I also like O16 better at the moment, because it seems bigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #16 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:47 am 
Gosei
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I also agree with O16. I don't have any deep and insightful thoughts behind it, it just seems like the most obvious move (not to say there aren't others)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . B . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, that's 4/5 consensus, and I doubt Joaz will propose something so different and so much better that we'll change our minds, so I'm going to post it. For future reference, is this the point where whoever is posting can feel free to reveal the move? Or would the rest of you rather we wait for all five views to come in, even in likely unanimous decisions like this?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #17 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:25 am 
Honinbo

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Dusk Eagle wrote:
...
For future reference, is this the point where whoever is posting can feel free to reveal the move? Or would the rest of you rather we wait for all five views to come in, even in likely unanimous decisions like this?



Maybe we can wait for some period of time before posting a move. I agree with both moves posted, but if we get going too fast, there may be some moves made without some people even noticing. It'd be good to at least have a chance to contribute, even if you're against the majority.

For example, a new idea could promote discussion, and lead to people changing their minds.

What do others think about the process for finalizing a move?

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #18 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:48 am 
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@the gang

Hello, fellows. Just a suggestion: I've been thinking that for the Malkovich games where multiple people need to discuss a move it might be helpful to hold the discussion on a separate page to keep the forum post a little less cluttered. I've went ahead and created an example for this game here. Note that in the caption for the board there are three names in parentheses which might be used to indicate signing off on the move. Once there is a majority -- if that is how you decided to proceed -- the last voter could copy and paste the comments and add his own in the forum post that contains the move.

I hope you don't mind my using of yours names in my example. :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #19 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Sounds great, I've posted a response on the SL page :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #20 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:36 pm 
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As an observer, I'd far rather see the "gang"'s move discussions take place here on L19 than over at Sensei's.


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