I was assuming we'd post the entire SL discussion with the move, when we've made it?

Alright, I was actually concerned about the opposite problem - that not posting any moves would lead to an incredibly slow game, which could be bottlenecked by any one person being busy for a couple of days. Since there's no official leader of our group, and since this is being played on a forum rather than IRL or on an IRC channel, I think we need to come up with some agreement as to when one of us can post the next move.

Here's my suggestion: We give everyone one day from the last move to post their thoughts. After that, if a majority (>= 3/5) support a move, anyone may post it, otherwise, we must discuss it some more. If all five people post and agree on a move, it can be played without waiting the full day. How does that sound?

I'm glad you like the idea. Hopefully it works out well for you and your team.

The idea is to copy and paste the discussion from SL to the forum post once they have decided. So you need not ever visit SL to read the full discussion.

Fine by me if someone copies to SL, but I'd like to see the discussion here.

I agree with this.

One clarification question: does this mean that we will make a move at a certain time every day? Or does the 24-hour 'day' start when MW posts his move?

I disagree. I think that we will see things that MW does not. I'm sure that 5 different viewpoints will sometimes bring up something that he has not thought about.
And I saw a group-killing move that MW missed in his latest game against Topazg. See viewtopic.php?p=50056#p50056

I was thinking from when Magicwand makes his move. Otherwise, the amount of time we have could vary widely based on when Magicwand makes his move that day.

Fine by me if someone copies to SL, but I'd like to see the discussion here.

Doesn't it make more sense for both us and the observers to have the discussion on SL? That way, we can post just once here, with the entire conversation. I can see this thread getting _really_ noisy otherwise, I think SL discussion will make it a lot cleaner and easier on everyone.

If we don't want to do it at sensei's, I think a separate thread for our discussion might be in order. That way we don't have to use hide tags and this thread can be for magicwand and observers to comment in.

I just added a comment at sensei's, btw.

hum...they are having some discussions..
i hope someone fill me in...

Their discussions are mostly about working out the logistics of how they're going to organize themselves and how/where they will be discussing and choosing their moves. (I think they're setting up a page on Sensei's library).

J17 is the current favorite: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GangMalkovich1

My suggestion is R5:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he tries to get too agressive, he will find himslef overstretched like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A small pincer would be insipid:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and a standard corner extension allows us a strong group while his side stone is floating:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SL is not immune to overcrowding. At least here we can keep stuff managable with hide tags.
Yeah, this may get noisy, but for a serious discussion of moves, we are going to often want several diagrams per person. That will really saturate SL.

There is no reason to keep the discussion on SL once it has been posted here so it should stay fairly clean.

i believe i can give 2 stone or more to everyone except topazg.
but if i play to win..i believe i can give him 2 stone also.(although he has more chance to win)
i will try my best to win this game. i am used to playing crazy handycap game for money so this is nothing new.

comment so far:
my marked white stone is unusual approach designed for out boxing.
if you want to be strong at handycap game ...avoid black's attack much as possible in the beginning and build your influence and thickness. that influence will give you chance to grab the flow.
i want to avoid their attack much as possible and that one more space will do just that.

also i want to be attacking his group much as possible.
all i need is one flow that will turn this game around.

once i reach close to even game...i will not let go of few point lead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Opinion at Sensei's is 4-1 in favor of the two space pincer. But I propose we give Joaz a chance to respond to the criticisms of his move before we play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm5 Move Suggestion ()
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d b . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

=== Move 4 ===


[topazg] ... he's decided to go all exciting on us. My gut feeling is to play "a", aiming at "b" or "c". If he wants a fight, let's give it to him. However, it may be better to pincer first and let him chase us into attacking the other side. If we do this, I'd pincer the latest stone, as that's the one that will be able to look after itself when the dust settles (because the top left is our stone, and the bottom right is his).

[Dusk Eagle] I suggest staying one back with a move at 'd'. I've heard from somewhere and it makes sense to me that, after white does a one-space jump and we do the same, having the stone a line further away makes is harder to attack.

As for the whole pincer-vs.-not-pincer debate, I think pincering first keeps a better flow going. If we don't pincer first, Magicwand may well be able to extend along the top side and our one-space jump stone at 'a' won't be as good.

Edit: So now I've looked it up using GoGoD (substituting a more common approach on the right), and both pincers seem playable, though 'd' is played slightly more often than 'b'. However, 'a' directly is rather seldomly played.

[topazg] Yeah, I was just thinking it's bad unless we already have a stone on the right hand side. I'm happier with either "b" or "d" than "a" now

[daniel the smith] I think ''d'', white jumps, then ''a'' is standard and much more efficient than ''a'' directly. ''d'' would be my move. I think MW is just being a bully, this has to be too early for white.

[JoazBanbeck] Running at 'a' seems premature to me. Isn't there some proverb about the smaller the gap, the more effective is your play when you split it? True, we do not want to get locked in the corner, but he cannot lock us in with one move. I'm generally in favor of pincering something.

After some thought, I favor the approach at 'f'. It is effectively a very long pincer, and it is difficult for him to make an effective play on the side against us. See my L19 post for details.

[Kirby] I like "d". The stones in the top right are pretty strong, and "d" takes away his approaching stone's base.

[topazg] Ok, so dusk, daniel, Kirby and myself all seem to be opting for "d" - Joaz, you want the lower right approach at R6. You say the shorter pincer in insipid, but I'm not sure why Black should be happy with the following board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm6 Joaz' suggestion - how to follow?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has a fairly hard to attack group on the right, and Black's corner is suddenly in more danger. I want to play somewhere around White 7 as Black, but I think the preparatory pincer on top should allow us to push White around. In this board position, I think White will do the pushing - how had you intended Black to continue from here?

[daniel the smith]: Sorry Joaz I really really don't like that move. If things go as Joaz suggested at L19, both players have a lot of groups, but I feel like white's groups are much more flexible. And topazg's diagram above looks horrible for black. Additionally, I think that the approach is on the wrong side ("approach from the open side"). (I should note, I'm glad someone advocated some other move and I hope people will continue to do so even if most of the time it gets shot down.)

One other thought: our two stones on the top are now for fighting (before white's last move they could fight or make a big house). We need weak white groups around them so they can be effective. This is why I think white's move is bad; he needed to stabilize his other stone first. Now we (should) get one strong group between two weak white groups.

[Dusk Eagle] I don't think it's good to let our top two stones come under attack unless we are simultaneously attacking a white group. That's what the pincer at 'd' is to help do. If we play the approach, I'm concerned white will be able to solidify his groups before turning to attack our top one.


[JoazBanbeck] It was just a matter of style. I see nothing wrong with 'd', so I'll happily go with the majority. ( I would have argued vigorously you you guys had wanted 'a'. )

i expect the below variation.
it will make things more complicated for black (and also white)
they might not play and play something else...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]