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 Post subject: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2d)
Post #1 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:10 pm 
Gosei
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As discussed in the signup thread, we'll be starting a game of Zen Go, Malkovich style.

Players:
Nikolas73 (6k)
Fwiffo (4k)
Harleqin (2d)


Nikolas, you're up first. Have fun!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My goal in this game is to get out of my comfort zone and experiment. I will play moves I think are right when there are clear correct moves, but during the opening and times when there is room for creativity, I will try to be creative. I rarely work outside my comfort zone, and this seems like an opportunity, since there is no pressure to win or avoid losing.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: No
Post #2 Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:59 am 
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fwiffo wrote:
As discussed in the signup thread, we'll be starting a game of Zen Go, Malkovich style.

Players:
Nikolas73 (6k)
Fwiffo (4k)
Harleqin (2d)


Nikolas, you're up first. Have fun!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My goal in this game is to get out of my comfort zone and experiment. I will play moves I think are right when there are clear correct moves, but during the opening and times when there is room for creativity, I will try to be creative. I rarely work outside my comfort zone, and this seems like an opportunity, since there is no pressure to win or avoid losing.

A very Zen first move!

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #3 Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Ok, have fun everyone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I almost always start with the 4-4 stone. Depending on White's next moves there are a lot of options: Nirensei, Sanrensei, Orthodox, etc.


I should say again that this is my first Malkovich game (and first time using the diagrams here). Please let me know if I am doing something wrong...

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #4 Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:52 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alright, I'm going to try to get 3-4 points facing each-other here. In other words, if black plays in the lower right next, I'll play D3. Or I would, if I was playing white my next turn. I could have played C4 or D3 this turn to force a parallel opening, but black would have the opportunity to choose his second corner in a way that gives him a really good approach to my 3-4. If played C4, he'd play in the lower right, and if I played D3 he would play in the upper left.

This way, if he wants that kind of approach, he'll have to occupy the lower left now, forcing a diagonal opening. That's fine with me, because I rarely play one normally, and keeps with the spirit of experimentation I've wanted to bring. I also think a territorial posture is a good choice in a diagonal game because it's harder to build a large framework, so that goes well with my choice of the 3-4.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #5 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:42 pm 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like to get out of established fuseki patterns as soon as possible. This move places a lot of emphasis on the lower right corner, so a diagonal fuseki is very likely.

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 Post subject: Move 4
Post #6 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:19 pm 
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KGS: Nikolas73
DGS: Nikolas73
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Taking the last corner... I considered the 3-3 or 3-4, but don't want to give too much influence to Black, especially with the position of Black's other stones (if that makes sense.. I haven't played many diagonal openings before).

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #7 Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:03 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that's what I might have played as white. It gives white a natural and attractive approach to my lower left stone. The simplest way to prevent that nice approach is to simply enclose the corner, which is a very high priority move anyway, following elementary opening theory.

White may choose to enclose the top left, but black can then take an extension in the vicinity of C10 or D10, the favored direction for this shimari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , a . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR D4 D8}
$$ {AR D16 H16}[/go]

I think this is good for black. :b7: is a dual purpose move, making the ideal extension from black's enclosure, and taking away white's extension. Of course, it's the less important extension for white, but it's still a big point. If white takes the time to make his own extension on the top, black makes a double wing formation by extending on the bottom.

I also considered the high enclosure ( :b5: at a), but I think it gives white some more interesting options. For instance, white might immediately take the left side extension away, and if black approaches in the upper left, it's a nice opportunity to pincer. And then black has to deal with an open skirt in the lower left. Because white occupies the lower right, it is a very attractive soft spot to poke at.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #8 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:42 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that this is the natural continuation. One can say that, two moves ago, the two possible shimari were miai. The reason that I chose the ogeima shimari is that Black has less of a continuation if he takes the left side in front of his shimari.

There are now two interesting sides, upper and right, because that is where both corners are standing high. The left side is less interesting because of the low and strong :w6:, while the lower side has the low and strong :b5:.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #9 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:42 pm 
Lives with ko

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KGS: Nikolas73
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, so I can see a few options/areas to play here as Black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . c . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A seems to be the wrong side of the board; it can be developed later. B is getting closer, but is too slow and not forceful enough. C can damage the wall White might build in the future, but then White can do the same with D. I think D is b est as it almost forces White to play around E (to prevent a "double wing" formation) and then Black can take C or some other large point. D Also works well with Black's enclosure. Finally, White's enclosure can still be attacked and invaded in the future, and D may help with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #10 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:42 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1435
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KGS: fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move is difficult for white. Getting an extension (K16 or K17) from the large enclosure in the upper left is important, particularly considering that this particular enclosure has a fairly loose grip on the corner and can be invaded later. It also has a nice follow-up in the form of an approach to the top right.

But it's also important to prevent black getting a double wing formation, so K3 or K4 would be a very good point - it would be an extension from the 4-4 stone in the lower right. Extensions from 4-4 stones are lower priority, but it would be a dual-purpose move. But if I take away that extension, black can still get a nice box framework on the left later. Capping at E10 is going to be a priority eventually.

I always feel like it's difficult for white to get the initiative in the opening, and it never seems like white can gain by going to extreme lengths to get it. There aren't any good sente moves for white this early; an approach to the top right would certainly be gote, unless it's treated as a probe. But even that could be ignored, and a probe might be premature. Likewise a probe of the enclosure in the lower left would be premature. But white can't just try to build his own framework, move after move. In that kind of game black will always be a move ahead and get the bigger half. White has to be more active and confront black.

So I settle on K3, to limit black's potential there and maybe start building something from the 4-4 stone in the lower right. I picked the low move over K4 because I don't like the open skirt. If black eventually takes the short extension around H3, K4 would feel sorta awkward and floating.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #11 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:42 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect White to play the ikken tobi, then Black slides and extends. Then, White can either approach on the top side, which Black would pincer, or White simply extends, which lets Black have a kind of shimari.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #12 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:00 pm 
Gosei
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This game seems very ordinary so far for such a strange format.

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 Post subject: Move 10
Post #13 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As mentioned in my last post I expected Black to play around K17, but this is interesting. I do not want to pincer Black, as that would give Black too many options to attack the bottom and right sides. So I think defending the bottom is most important. How should this be done?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . c a . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . d b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered points A-E.

A would leave a weakness around m3, and is not very secure. C also leaves Black with a lot of options to destroy White's corner and bottom area. B also leaves a weakness at m3, so D looks like the only good move to me. I also thought about E, but this leaves a bigger weakness on the bottom, and is usually only used with a sanrensei (not good with Black's enclosure in the lower left, in other words). Now, with White "D" I would expect Black to play the 3-3 or extend on the right side, after which White can play around the top side and aim at attacking Black's top-right corner.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #14 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:11 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am not fond of :w10:. It's low, implying a desire for territorial development, but too loose relative to the 4-4 stone. Black can easily take away all the corner territory. I would have played O4 which seems like a better shape to me.

After :b11: white could secure the corner with something like R4 now, but it would be gote. If white plays elsewhere, the corner remains open for later. There are several different ways I could take the corner immediately, but the approach stone would probably be damaged and white gets thick. I'd rather leave it a bit more unsettled.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #15 Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:35 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am inclined to say that :w10: was a mistake, because it is too close to the stone on the side while leaving the corner unnecessarily open. The white position on the lower side now has few continuations: further extending on the lower side is not so valuable, because K3 is very strong already; :w10: is low and far, so that it does not help much for an invasion of the right side; so, pretty much the only thing to do here is to close the corner.

Compare this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . c . |
$$ | . . . . X . b . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Regarding :w12:: I could have approached the corner directly, but then Black will most likely pincer, with an unclear result for White due to Q10. White could just enter the corner, but Black blocks on the right side, at which point :w10:'s lack of help for reducing the right side framework would become obvious. White could jump out and counter-pincer, but then I feel the question why he did not simply extend in the first place. White could also try a double approach, but this is a bit straining again because of Q10.

So, I just extend. If Black plays ogeima from the top right, White can stand up with ikken tobi, because that opens up the black corner and reduces the black framework. If Black plays only kogeima, White can extend back to H16. In either case, White can still invade on the right around S15. Next, I think that Black's lower left framework becomes the interesting part.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #16 Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:07 am 
Gosei
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This thread feels like a library. My past zen go games have been much more festive (they usually involved drinking). Are we not attracting many viewers because of the sheer number of games going on or because nothing exciting has happened yet? My game against topazg had a ton of commentary.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #17 Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:50 am 
Gosei

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Game needs to get going before the commentary begins. So far, I have nothing to say. I hid this comment because it's fun.

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 Post subject: Move 13
Post #18 Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:45 pm 
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fwiffo wrote:
This thread feels like a library. My past zen go games have been much more festive (they usually involved drinking). Are we not attracting many viewers because of the sheer number of games going on or because nothing exciting has happened yet? My game against topazg had a ton of commentary.


It seems to me like we have been playing a rather peaceful "zen" game so far :) .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . b . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have to say this is getting a little difficult for me; it is interesting to plan a strategy for one side and then have to counter it on the next turn.

My thinking with this move is that White will respond around "A" or "B" - if B, Black still has J17 to play later. Black will also have a chance, after White's next move, to either attack White's top-right corner, expand the left side (E10?) or build the right area. White will start to develop a moyo, but it is still early in the game and Black can build large areas, too. This move also helps Black develop the right side; I think Black would be happy if White invaded the top-right at R17 and let Black build a wall.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #19 Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:10 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . W . 3 . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . a . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . f . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These points, a-g, are the moves that come to mind. Locally, responding at a to start to connect back to the corner enclosure and take territory seems natural. But it's passive, and it doesn't really firmly connect back or take territory. Things are still open. Another territorial move, b, is a natural follow-up to :w10:. But it seems a bit slow at this point. It's big though.

There are possible invasion points for white at c, d and e. :b13: makes the corner more attractive for white than it otherwise would be. I would have played the small-knight's enclosure here, even though it would put slightly less pressure on the white extension stone. The corner wouldn't be 100% secure, but it would be a much less attractive target.

It's worth noting that both marked white stones ( :w6: and :w12:) were played by Harleqin, who is a six stones stronger than me. Both the large knight's enclosure, and the long extension strongly indicate a preference for large-scale, influence oriented development in this area. And making a box framework is completely natural here. I want to jump to f to maximize the boxiness, but this close to black's stone, it feels too thin. But g still makes a box framework, and looks pretty nice. White is first to take the game off the third and fourth line and start vertical development.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2
Post #20 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:20 am 
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The first time that it happened like I expected. :)

White now pretty much has to invade on the right, although one could imagine S4, too---I just feel that it is too slow. White needs to take the strange position of :w10: into account. It may not be very active, but at least, the lower side is pretty strong now, so there is not much to fear for it when invading on the right.

I believe that :b15: is tedomari (the last big point of this stage), which might also be an indication that things are running well for Black. If White had played :w10: at O4, he would now have G3 as another big point.

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