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Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=462
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Author:  Kirby [ Fri May 07, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last year, rebant from GD came up with the idea of a forum-wide go game. Let's do it, again. This time, though, let's combine the idea with Joaz's Malkovich style games.

If you want to play, just pick a side and make a move for that side. Put your rationale for the move in hide tags. Try to stick to one side once you've chosen it. Players on the black side can read only read black player comments, whereas players on the white side should only read white player comments.

I guess I'm playing for black.

I like starting with the 4-4 move because it's flexible and symmetrical. I'll have more strategy based upon where the opponent choses to respond.


Players so far (I'll try to add as people join):
Black
Kirby
prokofiev
Jordus
Marcus
unkx80
Joaz

White
Chew Terr
Bill Spight
fwiffo
Dusk Eagle
Araban
amnal

Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri May 07, 2010 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sounds good to me. Kirby, you may want to list the teams in the first post, and update it as people join.

I always play a 4-4 first as white, then choose my next stone based on how black continues. White has to play a more flexible game than black, since black can choose a plan and white has to respond to it. If black plays another 4-4, I will too. This is because I don't want to leave a good approach like an unbalanced stone would. If black plays an unbalanced stone, I will consider options of doing one myself or approaching it. We'll see what it looks like when it comes up.

Author:  prokofiev [ Fri May 07, 2010 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has permitted a diagonal fuseki. I suppose that means more fighting and less of a moyo-oriented game. I'm pretty flexible, and I'm happy to give it a go.

Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri May 07, 2010 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

I'll give some time for other players to join my team. However, at the moment, I'm considering
the northwest 3-3 point. Since we've gotten into a diagonal fuseki, the walls that blocking on top of the 3-3 would generate wouldn't work as well with potential black moyos. The thickness would, of course, still help for fights, but at least we could try to keep things simple, grab cash, and play thick to keep a lead. Mostly, I really want to be able to play 3-3 as an option, so I'm trying to figure out when and how to play it, and now seems as good as most times.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri May 07, 2010 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here's my chance. :)

This position is equal. :mrgreen:

Author:  Jordus [ Fri May 07, 2010 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Take that equal positions! :twisted:

Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri May 07, 2010 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Edit: Unhidden.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w6: maintains equality. :)

An observation, not a recommendation.

Author:  fwiffo [ Fri May 07, 2010 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

I guess I can join team white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Breaking symmetry
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think responding directly to :b5: is a little insipid. I could approach the top right with a, but then black could play a pincer that works well with his approach stone. I could play b, but that maintains symmetry, which I don't think is to white's advantage. So I like c.

Author:  Marcus [ Fri May 07, 2010 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Double Kakari? This could be fun. :D

Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon May 10, 2010 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's the concept of mutual damage - we can't let our own side be damaged more than their side. Plus, our high stone might work better with the marked stone below than their low stone does with their own marked stone, though it may seem a bit superficial.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon May 10, 2010 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

So, our own team can read our comments, huh? That could be interesting for the high players to "relay" information in complicated fights to the lower-ranked players.

P.S. Go team :white: !

Author:  Tryphon [ Mon May 10, 2010 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Risks of collisions, when this post will be more popular (what will happen very soon).

Author:  unkx80 [ Wed May 12, 2010 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

I guess this is the first Malkovitch game I am participating in. Presently I cannot commit to a full Malkovitch game, so I think this arrangement will be best.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually I know absolutely nothing about this kind of positions, and quite little regarding their associated josekis, so I am making this move mainly by intuition.

Assuming white plays :w10: here, then we can compare it against :b9: since both make similar shapes. The :b9: and :bc: structure focuses more on the top side while the :w10: and :wc: structure focuses more on the left side. In my opinion, the top side is more interesting than the left side. Therefore, this result might come out slightly better for black, but this is a fairly low confidence assessment.

Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 12, 2010 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It was only inevitable right? This move can help keep the influence Black is likely to score on top in check. When a kyu player "breaks the rhythm" of this opening, that is our chance to take advantage.

PS: Not making videos for this Malkovich due to the risk of collision + busy schedule already :).

Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri May 14, 2010 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The left corners are close enough to symetrical that they can be treated as miai: whayever they do to us, we do to them. The left side is so populated that there is not much to be accomplished there. But there is a big oba on the right which not only gets a lot of influence on the right, it affects top and bottom also.

Author:  amnal [ Fri May 14, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When in doubt, ask your opponent exactly what their plan is for the moyo. I prefer this to the wedge because it feels like if black defends the corner, white will be pushed against black's influence in a boring way. This area seems important because black can almost perfect his moyo with another move here, whilst a white move should have no trouble getting in black's way. I would intend to adopt a moyo reduction joseki, but goodness knows where this game will go :D

Author:  Marcus [ Fri May 14, 2010 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . B . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to get this in. :D I feel like this is a decent extension from our left side stones. A nice, loose pincer.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri May 14, 2010 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This should be fun. :)

Besides, I don't like the idea of a Black jump here.

Author:  Jordus [ Fri May 14, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


you attach one, I attach another.... :cool:

Author:  amnal [ Sat May 15, 2010 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Forum Wide Malkovich Game: Black vs. White

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners - B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X W . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Surely sabaki will not be difficult now. I think it would be harsher for black to push between white's stones somehow.

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