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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 19, W: 12
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . m 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
The only other move I considered was the hane, which costs me five points but doesn't look much better than this one. Now White has to worry about finding himself in a position where he has to live in that corner by playing a minus zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:16 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 19, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Here comes the fun :D

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #23 Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:38 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . 6 X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I usually try to play as solidly as possible, so I was tempted to connect at D5, but I think that might be over-concentrated (creates a "super-stable" chain, a no-no according to Bruce Wilcox), and it lets White get a big corner. If White cuts me, it shouldn't be a problem, since I can live easily (I hope) on both sides.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #24 Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:05 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 14
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 7 O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I have a feeling I'm playing to the m and p points, which I think I'm doing way too hard. We'll see how this goes, I have a few plans but nothing all that clever sadly :(

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #25 Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 21, W: 14
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I really hate to play such a slow move, but I just can't find any alternative that doesn't leave me with scary weaknesses. I even considered the kosumi to the plus zone on the left, but I just can't read any happy futures for me after White cuts at D5. At least now I am completely impervious to attack and I can focus on other things. And since I have 7 points "komi", I don't need to do anything fancy.

This type of solid, cautious move is typical for me. If it is bad and Graham manages to punish it, I'll consider it a valuable learning opportunity.

I will now try to play in the upper left as soon as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #26 Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 10:55 am 
Tengen
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Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 21, W: 15
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Hopefully living in the corner without having to touch the nasty "m" points ;). Have 3 plus points in my grasp too, which is obviously nice. Looking at D9 and K3 if I can get them as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #27 Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 22, W: 15
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . O B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I thought about tenuki-ing to the upper left (maybe D9) to extend from my wall, but I think I should just be more patient. I expect after this move White will connect somehow, and then I will descend to the plus zone. 5 points really is a lot on such a small board!

I also need to start thinking about my strategy for the hidden stone. In general I think it's best to use it for a move that you would have wanted to play anyway. That way if your opponent finds it right away, you didn't lose anything. The trick will be to find a time when there is a point that I want to play but White doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #28 Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:55 pm 
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 22, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . W O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts

If he takes the plus zone, I think I will play D9. As he's going to want to avoid C9 and at the same time stop me developing the top side. Hopefully I'll get it in sente and then wander off to the top and right hand side plus points.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #29 Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:01 pm 
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I kinda expected topazg to take the plus zone here, and let the capture happen. couldn't he still live in sente?

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #30 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:42 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 28, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


This is a big move. Getting 5 points on the plus zone isn't like taking five points of territory; it's like capturing five stones. That is to say, the swing value is 10.

Incidentally, if I ever try to make territory in the upper left, White may be able to take the left plus zone in sente, which is one more reason why the upper left isn't as big as it looks.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #31 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:51 am 
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m W . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


One thing that's really interesting about this game, is that the plus points are really 3 point gote moves if they are inside your own territory, so they aren't all that big. If Black takes the point at the top, he gets 5 points, but he also loses 2 as I get a point of territory and the prisoner, and does so in gote. In which case, it seems much bigger to take all the big edge points, and the take the "p" points when 3 points gote is actually reasonably worth playing.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #32 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:55 pm 
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This is tough, I'll have to think about it. I'll probably make my move tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #33 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:54 pm 
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I was really looking forward to this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X W . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


:mrgreen:

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We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #34 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:36 pm 
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KGS: topazg
Dusk Eagle wrote:
I was really looking forward to this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X W . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


:mrgreen:


I considered it, but after he cuts on the minus point. I'm dead without him having to play the other one I think. If true, that's a good 20 points to make up for the 5 he lost, and I decided I couldn't afford to be right ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #35 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:06 pm 
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An interesting comparison:

If black were to effect this, it would be worth say 14 points in gote for black, minus the value of white's somewhat improved outward thickness:
(not saying this is a position that would ever happen... just placing down a small "successful invasion")

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . W B B . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ W B . B |
$$ | . . m O . . . W m B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Getting White to play the minus point in his own territory in sente somehow is worth 5 points in sente for black, which is only 2 points less than 14/2 = 7, and then add as well the value of any aji black creates this way.

A possible approach to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . 1 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Of course White can resist and things become interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m O . . 5 1 m 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


This post by prokofiev was liked by: MountainGo
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #36 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:43 pm 
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wow, this looks like sooo much fun :D

I also want to give this a try.
If anyone is interested in a simmilar game let me know.
I don't mind the rank I just want to try this out and have some fun. :cool:

good luck topazg & MountainGo

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #37 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:33 pm 
Gosei
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freegame wrote:
wow, this looks like sooo much fun :D

I also want to give this a try.
If anyone is interested in a simmilar game let me know.
I don't mind the rank I just want to try this out and have some fun. :cool:

good luck topazg & MountainGo


Post in the other thread, you might be luckier in getting an opponent: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=145

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a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #38 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:14 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 29, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I am playing my hidden stone. I'll send Phelan the location.
The pros seem to like to use the hidden stone in the late middle game or endgame, but I'd just like to see how using it a bit earlier might work out. I like the idea of making him worry early on and constantly question his moves until he finds my stone.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #39 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:48 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 29, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I'll probably find it as we fight in a big mess, then I'll use mine too ..

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #40 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:00 am 
Gosei
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Hidden stone played at
an intersection. :razz: Don't look in here!

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Good Go = Shape.
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