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 Post subject: Review Request
Post #1 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:04 am 
Lives with ko

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Played this game recently. Do not entirely understand what happened. Made costly mistakes at moves 35 and 37, but were they fatal? Seems like the game should have been salvageable. However, other than move 57 (I think the losing move), I do not see what I could have done differently.

Would anyone have time to take a look?

Thanks in advance!



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2017-08-09 me vs 9k+ IGS.sgf [8.22 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #2 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:20 pm 
Judan

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Some comments on the opening.


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #3 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:27 pm 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
Some comments on the opening.


Bill, thank you. This is very helpful! One follow-up question. Following white 8 at F17, the board is as follows. You recommend A over my move at B because a white move at A would be severe. Why would this double approach be more sever than a white double approach at B or C?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #4 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:51 pm 
Judan

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OK, let's compare combs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 2 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is a strong play. Black pushes through and stabilizes his position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is placid, allowing :w2:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black pushes through
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is strong, but after :w6: Black has difficulties. Black has no base, and White has only one weak group in the fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #5 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:38 am 
Oza
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For :b35: I have a heuristic: Three and a cut? watch your butt!

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This post by daal was liked by 2 people: BlindGroup, dfan
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #6 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:34 am 
Lives with ko

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As you already had Bill commenting, I probably cant say anything better about the opening anymore. But I do want to comment about move 57(Bill didnt go that far). In my thinking this is very bad timing, because to me the fight between the white g11 and the black 11 Stone seems urgent. It would be so big for black, if he was able to smallow that stone and make 7th line territory!

Now in that fight, it seems to be very handy for black to have the opportunity to cut the other side at h15 and use the liberty problems on whites 3 stones to strengthen the h11 stone in that fight. It seems very counterintuitive to give up on that by using the other atari to make gote profit.

Acually, even if I'm right about this thinking, I'm absolutely not sure what black should do. My first feeling in the shape would be h10 extend(trying to swallow the stone as I described).
Then I noticed that extending at j11 instead would threaten to capture those 3 white stones (e.g.in a cranes nest) and is therefore more or less forcing. But I would be worried, that white would happily connect h15 and I would be very unhappy about the exchange cause the aji is gone and I would prefer my j11 stone at h10, cause it seems easier to surround the left from there. Next idea was maybe cut h15 immediately, if its so good for white to fix?(that would be atari and extend at j15), hoping to get more than just one forcing move out of whites problem with the 3 stones. THis would clearly be forcing and it seems difficult to handle for white without handing black the left(moves like atari j11 would induce black to get the g10 move he wanted anyway), but maybe thats okay for white if he gets to capture that j15 stones, which would also be big profit on the top. It seems to me, that there is quite some reading involved here.

Starting at 2 like you suggest is also a good idea idea, but I would be slightly worried that white gains the advantage locally with g10 extend and if the white stones end up solid, the jump doesnt build anything(but still reduces the bottom at least). If black already had g10, I would no doubt want to jump there. Baring in mind that j11 is sente as we noticed which makes backs stone stronger than it looks, maybe white cannot really extend profitably anyway and black should just go ahead with f6?

Also, another thing. Are you sure that your sequence starting with the cut is really better than just directly m16 without the other exchanges? that seems to leave more possibilities for later(for example in your Variation starting with th jump, you also want to do this cut, what if m16 at that point)

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #7 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:54 am 
Lives with ko

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Bill, daal, and Schachus, thank you for these comments! As always, very useful. I have a lot to think about now.

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