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 Post subject: Re: Swim's Reviews
Post #21 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Swim's review is here:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3027817

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 Post subject: Re: Swim's Reviews
Post #22 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:40 pm 
Judan

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djhbrown wrote:


Thanks, and welcome back... If I understand correctly, Swim recommends for white to play either: O5, P6, Q7, Q11, P11, or O11 in this position?

Image

Is that what you mean?

In the game, I played R10. The paper says:
Quote:
Attachments are excluded, following the heuristic adage: "do not contact the stones you are attacking".


Is this the only reason that Swim thinks that R10 is bad?

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 Post subject: Re: Swim's Reviews
Post #23 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Is that what you mean?

The illustration is only a partial review; the fightback method proposes attacking a weak group or invading a moyo; methods of achieving the latter are discussed in "Swimming with Alphago"; disjunctive methods are not exclusive, but generate alternative areas for moves; the intersection of all proposed move areas would create a preferred list of candidates; i considered taking the analysis further, but as my main purpose was to get section 2 of the paper into print (section 3 is what Arthur Sullivan calls "mere corroborative detail, designed to lend verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing narative"), i didn't bother. My guess is that if i did so, Swim might prefer green over red, at least until it started reading; and it is conceivable that Swim might end up preferring red over green, which at first glance looks slow, but letting black split white's two weak clusters might not be a good idea.

at the end of the day, Swim's deductions would be sent off to the jury, which might come up with a different move altogether - i considered feeding the position into Leela or Ray to see what they, as jury members, might propose as follow-ups (or as alternative initial candidates), but figured that if anyone wanted to see their probable moves, they could do their own checks. i recall that in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XG9WWQjBk4&t=1202s&index=29&list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S
Swim came up with different moves to Leela.

Kirby wrote:
Is this the only reason that Swim thinks that R10 is bad?

Swim doesn't think R10 is bad, merely that it wouldn't be a good way to go about attacking R9. i can envisage the methods described in "Commonsense Go" suggesting R10 as a leaning attack feint as preparation of an invasion of the upper right, but again, a thorough analysis of the position wasn't my main motive for the paper.

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 Post subject: Review #2: Sweet FA
Post #24 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:24 pm 
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DeepZen (w) vs Fine Art (b), semifinal of 1st World AI Go Open, black to play.

Attachment:
dzfac2sgm.png
dzfac2sgm.png [ 9.92 KiB | Viewed 145 times ]


Swim's assessment:

"black has 107 points of influence; white has 71. So black should play safe at 'a', 7 steps from strong black group 1 along a green line, to reduce white's centre moyo".

comment:

Uberdude reports that Fine Art played at 'b'
forum/viewtopic.php?p=222078#p222078

This is a terrible move - a beginner's error - trying to save two worthless stones.

Swim observes: "black group 5 is not important, it is much smaller than black's lead and although it does separate white 4 from white 3 and 5, white 4 is not weak, so there is no point attacking it".

How on earth could a program as strong as Fine Art (FA) make such a stupid move?
Answer: because, like its parent Alphago, FA has sweet FA idea what it's doing, relying on short-sighted deep search instead of understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Swim's Reviews
Post #25 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:25 am 
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Uberdude's review of a review of Swim's review #1
https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... o_and_god/

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