It is currently Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:33 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Life & Death in the middle
Post #1 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:13 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 372
Liked others: 41
Was liked: 41
I wanted to share this game, mainly because it left a "bad" aftertaste for me. It was against a 4 kyu OGS, which is way above my level.
You feel/see that early in the game, I have to make some sacrifices after mediocre play and I don't get enough of good compensation, I think.
Yet I don't fall completely apart and manage to build a decent middle.
Playing :b97: I thought: okay, this is still playable. I can still win this game!

And, in fact, things go very well for me.

Until..

Move 158.
Now, when I played move 147, I remember thinking: wouldn't N9 be better? After the game, I'm still wondering the same question. But I think, yes, probably.

Overall problem is that this middle group lived. Had it died, I don't know, a whole different game.

Hoping stronger players here can shed some light on my game. Am I correct in my analysis? Did it go wrong earlier?

Either way, I'm proud that I put up a good fight after a terrible opening. This is against a 4 kyu, after all. :)

Thanks for any help!


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #2 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:59 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1261
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 368
Rank: AGA 4k KGS 2k
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
I admire your fighting spirit in playing tenuki with :b11:, but it is really important to connect against White's atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . c . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O a . |
$$ . B X O . |
$$ . . O b . |
$$ . . . . . |[/go]

1) Your three stones (now five) are now super-strong, rather than starting to run out of liberties. (Witness the little extension you felt compelled to make after White took! Which I don't like much either, but one thing at a time...)

2) White's stones have some issues, rather than being invincible. They're in three pieces instead of one, with cutting points at a and b.

3) The whole upper side is your home turf now, while White is mostly just making some points in the corner. In the game, the whole upper right side is White's home turf, while you're hunkering down at the top just making a few points on the side.

4) It's close to sente, since Black c next is going to be super-duper annoying if White doesn't play there himself (he usually does).


This post by dfan was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #3 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:17 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 328
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 77
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Wouldn't Black 161 at O8 be much better?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #4 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:50 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 2
Rank: EGF 1d
I am not that strong and didn't check with an engine, so everything I say should be taken with a spoon of salt.

Up to :b32:, I like the result for black. The white corner is very big, but black's thickness dominates the entire board. I'd be interested what stronger players think of that position.

I feel that the trendy D6 enclosure works a bit better with the black influence than :b43:, but just taking any enclosure is the important part.

:b83: feels way to slow. The main point of the ko is that you can attack the white group afterwards. A single stone on the second line is not that important, even when it is big. This feels crucial to me.

Losing the three cutting stones around D11 also seems like a critical mistake. Did you misread there? If you play more solidly with them, you could sepearate the white groups for a pretty strong attack.

I did a rought count after :b97: and the game still seems somewhat close.

As others have pointed out, black 161 at O8 is a lot more dangerous for white.

Black 181 looks like the last big mistake for black and is maybe the losing move. Doesn't the S8 decend work to save these stones?


You made some mistakes, but overall it was a decent game for black. Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #5 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:09 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5078
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 834
Was liked: 1230
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
dfan wrote:
I admire your fighting spirit in playing tenuki with :b11:, but it is really important to connect against White's atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . c . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O a . |
$$ . B X O . |
$$ . . O b . |
$$ . . . . . |[/go]
...


I agree that you had to play as dfan suggests. But the issue never should have arisen.

The real problem is one move back.
This is the move that must be played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . B . . |
$$ . . . . . |[/go]


Note the thematic play here. The first three black stones are working toward a common goal: crushing white against the side. The fourth stone continues that theme in unity with his fellow stones.

The fifth stone betrayed his fellow stones. Instead, it should act in unity and continue suppressing white.

_________________
'I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinions of himself than on the opinions of others." -Marcus Aurelius

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #6 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:17 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 328
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 77
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The real problem is one move back.
This is the move that must be played.

LZ disagree :mrgreen:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #7 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:19 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1261
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 368
Rank: AGA 4k KGS 2k
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The real problem is one move back.
This is the move that must be played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . B . . |
$$ . . . . . |[/go]

Note the thematic play here. The first three black stones are working toward a common goal: crushing white against the side. The fourth stone continues that theme in unity with his fellow stones.

In modern (post-AlphaGo Zero) go, Black often leaves the situation as is without playing the marked stone. If he does continue, he is likely to hane and then follow up at a or b rather than extending:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . 1 2 . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O a . |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . . b . |
$$ . . . . . |[/go]

One issue with extending is that you usually end in gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . a . . |[/go]

Now Black really has to play at a because a White move there would be much worse than if Black tenukied and White played atari.

(This is all my recollection of In-seong Hwang's teaching, and may not be fully accurate or the way that he would put it.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #8 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:36 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 372
Liked others: 41
Was liked: 41
Interesting that the atari is usually countered with a hane on the other side.
Might be worth checking out, because you see the AG style so often :)

Also, I didn't/don't really like the AlphaGo-hype and all that. But I'm also not daft enough to not play any of the new variations and mess around with them. Actually if I play an early 3-3 or an Alpha-Go variation, I feel some kind of twisted-naughty-satisfaction. It's hard to put into words. Or let me say it like that: in a real serious game, I'd never do it, it doesn't come to me naturally. But I like experimenting with it and just throwing it in there for the heck of it.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #9 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:01 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1261
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 368
Rank: AGA 4k KGS 2k
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Ian Butler wrote:
Interesting that the atari is usually countered with a hane on the other side.

You mean after connecting against the atari (c in my first diagram)? That is a really common move to set up the a/b cut that is very much worth learning, as you will see it in a lot of situations.

Quote:
Also, I didn't/don't really like the AlphaGo-hype and all that. But I'm also not daft enough to not play any of the new variations and mess around with them. Actually if I play an early 3-3 or an Alpha-Go variation, I feel some kind of twisted-naughty-satisfaction. It's hard to put into words. Or let me say it like that: in a real serious game, I'd never do it, it doesn't come to me naturally. But I like experimenting with it and just throwing it in there for the heck of it.

It's worth being familiar with the new variations, or at least some aspects of them, because your opponents will play them occasionally. If your opponent plays a 3-3 invasion and you respond with the old usual hane-at-the-head-of-two-stones, they will likely get a small local advantage if they're familiar with the new followups and you're not. And if you play the modern knight's move (R14 in your game), creating the shape that happened in your game via transposition, you will want to know the ideas in the ensuing positions.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #10 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:17 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5078
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 834
Was liked: 1230
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Tryss wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The real problem is one move back.
This is the move that must be played.

LZ disagree :mrgreen:


In an absolute sense, LZ may be right. But for the purposes of this forum, I maintain that my answer is better.

The OP posted his game looking for advice. If we just tell him that a computer says that a certain move is better, but we cannot tell him why, then we have hardly helped him. All he knows now is that if the exact same position arises, he should tenuki.

But he really doesn't know why. Nor do we.

Humans learn go mostly by generalizations. There are a few specific things to be learned: joseki, basic dead shapes, simple connections. But the vast majority of what we know is in the form of proverbs or rules of thumb. Sometimes it is no more than a vague feeling that "...this stone belongs here". Why? "Because it just feels better here than over there."
We use words like 'light' and 'heavy'; 'slow' and 'fast'; 'big' and 'small' - opposites with a lot of grey area between the endpoints.
I remember Magicwand, when describing why he played a certain move, using a phrase like 'building flow'.

If the OP has learned that he must tenuki in this exact situation, he has gained very little. But if he grasps the idea that stones should work together - that they have a collective direction of play - he will have gained a lot more.

_________________
'I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinions of himself than on the opinions of others." -Marcus Aurelius


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: yakcyll
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #11 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:51 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5078
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 834
Was liked: 1230
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
dfan wrote:
...
One issue with extending is that you usually end in gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . a . . |[/go]

Now Black really has to play at a because a White move there would be much worse than if Black tenukied and White played atari.

...


If so, then logically the following result must be terrible for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------+
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . 3 4 . |
$$ . . 5 6 . |
$$ . . 7 8 . |
$$ . . 9 0 . |
$$ . . a . . |[/go]


White keeps getting stronger and black is forced to follow along in gote to prevent the eventual hane.

_________________
'I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinions of himself than on the opinions of others." -Marcus Aurelius

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #12 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:04 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1261
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 368
Rank: AGA 4k KGS 2k
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
If so, then logically the following result must be terrible for black:

You are too good a player to think that that follows logically, so I am not sure what the real argument is and I don't expect any further debate to be fruitful.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #13 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:11 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 549
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 247
Rank: AGA 5 dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . b . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Here is my take on this position.
  • W to play will atari (a) in sente, for a very good local result. B to play can tenuki, submitting to the atari, in order to take a really large play elsewhere. Sometimes B plays this joseki with tenuki in mind. Situations where tenuki might be appropriate include taking an open corner or approaching a corner where W could make a shimari.
  • B to play locally can choose between extension (a) and hane (b). The extension aims at making a wall, which is appropriate when the upper side has territorial potential for B.
  • The hane is more complicated. Either side can still emphasize the top or the right. Maybe someone else would be interested in reviewing some of the continuations.

Assuming B extends, we reach this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . d c e . . |
$$ . f . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . X a . |
$$ . . . . b . . |[/go]

  • W will usually crawl (a) immediately. If instead W plays elsewhere, B can block (a) in sente, as the block threatens to kill the corner (nice life & death problem). The logic here is that W wants to continue locally until the corner is not only alive, but additionally leaves no large sente move which threatens to kill.
  • W could also settle the corner in sente by playing hane and connect on top (c-d-e-f), but this gives B really good shape, in the direction where his wall is presumably valuable. And B still has a large block (a), which threatens not to kill but to capture in sente.
  • Assuming W crawls (a), B will almost certainly extend again (b), partly because a W hane there would be painful, but mostly because this advances his strategy of building a wall. The exchange (a-b) is bad for W on top, but as discussed W plays it for reasons having to do with the corner.
  • After this exchange (a-b), both sides will probably leave the resulting position alone for a while, to play larger moves elsewhere. In particular, W does not want to crawl any further, as that only helps B extend his wall, without adding much strength to the corner.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #14 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:13 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 328
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 77
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
There was a recent exemple of black tenuki in this position, during the game between Chen Yaoye and Shibano Toramaru at the 2018 Samsung Cup :




Note that black finally played the extension, but over 50 moves later.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #15 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:13 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 67
Location: France
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 9
Rank: FFG 1d
Mitsun, if I remember correctly, in your first diagram, when white plays atari at "a", usually he will extend in the corner as well, to defend against the weakness dfan pointed out. Compared the extension after hane, black would get two moves elsewhere.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death in the middle
Post #16 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:15 am 
Judan

Posts: 5282
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 294
Was liked: 2776
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Here's a reply I wrote before mitsun's good analysis of the local situation (though I wouldn't say atari is very good as white pretty much needs to defend afterwards as explo said, but Elf does seem to often like that position) as no one mentioned tedomari.

Joaz was wrong to say black must extend. Black could extend, it's a fine move at amateur mid-dan level or Ian's sdk (and simple if you want to avoid complicated josekis). At super-strong level I suspect it's a mistake and I can explain to myself some plausible explanations.

First, the local shape. dfan's explanation was sound: if extend white will crawl once and black is reluctant to tenuki (but I wouldn't say must answer when there are very big tenukis like empty corners available, there are some similar modern josekis where allowing the hane is considered ok) so black ends in gote and white has a solid territory without the double cut weakness of dfan's first diagram. Black has a nice wall, but the peep of the cutting point can be annoying later (the importance of this is a key point from AI), though not as annoying as with black playing the old joseki of hane after a wall of two. White would not continue crawling with 4 and so on in Joaz's last diagram (though crawling a second time against old knowledge is seen these days with the hane after wall of two variation, so never say never).

How about globally? An important plus for tenuki in the game position is there are 3 empty corners remaining. This means if play proceeds with taking them Black will get the last one: tedomari, the final large play before the value of available moves drops. If there were only 2 empty corners left (e.g Black 4-4, white 4-4, black invade) then I suspect LZ would consider extend less bad compared to tenuki because white could still get the last corner (but of course depends on orientation of wall compared to other corners, I think white would like to get the corner facing the wall but black can prevent this).

So in conclusion: tenuki and extend are both fine moves and it's good to be aware of both (plus other local choices like both hanes). When deciding if you want sente or gote think about who gets to play in the last empty corner.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Ian Butler
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group