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 Post subject: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #1 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:01 am 
Lives in sente
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Last week I played a game involving a perfect squeeze. Squeezing gives a good feeling. Squeezing in sente, making 20 points of territory, gives a very good feeling. I ended up with 3 corners and another star point and sente. So I thought I was ahead. However, LZ says the squeeze puts me behind.

In general I can be opiated by shape or "physical" sensations like a squeeze and tend to ignore the global positional judgment. I also find it hard to shift towards the territorial bias bots (and pros) seem to have, without ending up with a formidable moyo by the opponent. In this case I thought I saw the influence overlapping and being open to reducion, rather than it being a thick overall position with a lot of potential territory. Maybe LZ took other things into account, such as the aji in my two corners.

See 34-45 for the squeeze


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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #2 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:01 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Squeezing in sente, making 20 points of territory, gives a very good feeling.


I empathise and could easily fall into the same trap, but the illusion seems to lie in what you have said there: "making" 20 points of territory." The squeeze didn't make 20 points, you had nearly all of them already. (Not to mention that squeezes are normally meant to make thickness, not territory.)

It seems to me rather like the (possibly more insidious?) case of treating the monkey jump as always sente. So often it can and should be ignored as the follow-up is actually quite small once you accept the initial damage has been dome.

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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #3 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:20 am 
Judan

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From your description I was expecting a much better squeeze. In fact this hardly qualifies as a squeeze to me as squeezes tend to involve your opponent filling in a false eye, but with your 2 centre stones dead there's no false eye dumpling. Also where did you get 20 from? Compared to White's 2nd line sente hane connect and blacks bad shape connection (after which the side isn't even yet territory) I eyeball about 3 extra points for white on the side, which is less than losing the 2 Centre stones in points nevermind the thickness value. So yes you got high on the ataris!

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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #4 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 am 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude wrote:
From your description I was expecting a much better squeeze. In fact this hardly qualifies as a squeeze to me as squeezes tend to involve your opponent filling in a false eye, but with your 2 centre stones dead there's no false eye dumpling. Also where did you get 20 from? Compared to White's 2nd line sente hane connect and blacks bad shape connection (after which the side isn't even yet territory) I eyeball about 3 extra points for white on the side, which is less than losing the 2 Centre stones in points nevermind the thickness value. So yes you got high on the ataris!


Agreed - the perfect squeeze would have started with a different white move at 38 (which would have been the correct move locally IMO, or at least the one set up by the previous plays), but Black would have had to make mistakes for the squeeze to happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O 7 . O . . . . .
$$ | 6 2 3 X X O . . . . .
$$ | 5 1 X X O X X X . . .
$$ | 8 4 O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19m9
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . . .
$$ | X X O X X O . . . . .
$$ | 2 1 X X O X X X . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19m12
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . .
$$ | X X O X X O . . . . .
$$ | X 1 X X O X X X . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #5 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:36 am 
Judan

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bernds, yes that's a squeeze i might expect in this shape with a cooperative opponent. Also extend for 42 was a chance to then squeeze or live on the side.

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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #6 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:38 am 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Last week I played a game involving a perfect squeeze. Squeezing gives a good feeling. Squeezing in sente, making 20 points of territory, gives a very good feeling. I ended up with 3 corners and another star point and sente. So I thought I was ahead. However, LZ says the squeeze puts me behind.

In general I can be opiated by shape or "physical" sensations like a squeeze and tend to ignore the global positional judgment.


I have been playing around with Deep Leela (Leela 11) lately and one thing that has struck me about its play in recent days is how often it takes bad shape (as I judge it). OC, it may be my mistaken impression, but it might also be global efficiency versus local efficiency. It might also be peculiar to Leela 11's style. Does anyone have that impression with LZ or other top bots?

BTW, :w42: surprised me. For me the extension is a hell-or-high-water, no need to read kind of play. If it doesn't work, I think I've goofed already. What does LZ say?

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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #7 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:42 am 
Honinbo

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Now, for your entertainment and enjoyment, a damn near perfect squeeze. :cool: :D

Goto :b88:.


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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: A bad perfect squeeze
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:04 am 
Lives in sente

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Bill Spight wrote:
BTW, :w42: surprised me. For me the extension is a hell-or-high-water, no need to read kind of play. If it doesn't work, I think I've goofed already. What does LZ say?

LZ likes Knotwilg's move better than the extension (to which Black would respond with B4). Of course, he had goofed already. :)


This post by dfan was liked by: Bill Spight
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