Tournament game vs 3 dan EGF

marvin · #1

I had an opportunity to play an even tournament game vs 3 dan this weekend.

I would appreciate a review/discussion.

p.s. At the end I was short of time in byo-yomi.

Joaz Banbeck · #2

I'm not current with the latest on the magic sword, so maybe the computers are telling everyone that black can tenuki here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I see four black stones that are starting to look heavy and have little or no eye space secured. So I would play solidly like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not only does it secure black's group, but once black no longer has to worry about white becoming strong on the right, invasions like 'a become a possibility.

Joaz Banbeck · #3

Move 43 looked small, almost defensive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But you are locally much stronger, so you can play bigger moves.
Like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · #4

Quote:

I'm not current with the latest on the magic sword,

Isn't the magic sword high approach, not low?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . O . . X , O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------[/go]

The magic sword seems unrelated to the game shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O X X . . | $$ , . O . . X O O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------[/go]

gennan · #5

Move 11: The classical human joseki, but AI think this joseki is not good enough for black. In modern go, black should block at R5, leading to potentially complicated variations (also see my video about it). If you don't like such complications, it's better to approach high on move 5.
Move 18: I think it's better to extend to E4 to take sente for an approach at C14.
Move 25: Too loose in modern go, not securing the corner and still only modestly claiming something on the left side. Better to make a small knight enclosure. But M3 is an urgent move, so that may be even better than a big move.
Move 30: I think the modern C17 is better, refuting move 25.
Move 37: These exchanges help white more than black IMO. I think F17 is better.
Move 41: Leaving an invasion in the upper left may indeed be better than securing that area with a move at C14 (which makes the D9 exchanges overconcentrated), but I would prefer to play more speedy with F17.
Move 64: The game looks more or less over to me. White is winning.

EdLee · #6

Quote:

Move 11: The classical human joseki, but AI think this joseki is not good enough for black. In modern go, black should block at R6,

Maybe typo: B should block at R5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O X 1 . . | $$ , . O . . X O O . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------[/go]

gennan · #7

Good catch. Fixing it.

marvin · #8

Thank you for you comments. I appreciate them, I think that I take more from the review than just looking with Ai.
I attached a sgf with the raised comments, my thoughts, and some KataGo analysis. I will try to come up with a summary when I digest a bit.
I find the most interesting positions after move 42, B to play.

Move 37:
@gennan: This helps W more than B. Prefere F17.
Me: Do you have in mind a possibility of dividing C9 and w wall later?

kvasir · #9

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . X . . , . . Q . . X . . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O O O X X . . . . 1 . a O . . | $$ | . . O O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe the game became better for white but you should have fought back much harder after that. :wt:

is an invasion not a reduction and needs to be attacked. I think black can attack with :b1:

and there is also leaning with a that could maybe work directly or help blacks shape depending on the fight. In the game black helped white connect which made the situation endgame-like and black missed a chance to fight.

gennan · **#10**

marvin wrote:

Move 37:
@gennan: This helps W more than B. I Prefer F17.
Me: Do you have in mind a possibility of dividing C9 and w wall later?

With the C11-C9 exchange on the board, the priority of the left side has become low compared to other areas of the board (the upper side in particular).
So I feel that F17 is the obvious move in the proper direction for black (and I would even be grateful that white allowed it).

It's not clear to me that making more exchanges around D9 is a clear gain for black. It just makes black and white stronger. White may become a bit overconcentrated, but he still has close to 15 points and the extension to E8 also gives white power in the center and the shape after move 40 looks like black pushed into a knight move, which is not recommended in general.

What if black doesn't? If we imagine just black F17 and then exchanging jumps to the center (white E9 and black D11) it's still just fine for both, so no need to prevent it. Also if white attaches at D11 after black F17, it's still fine for both I feel. There is also invasion aji for both, but that still has lower priority than the upper side. So both players can just leave the left side for later.

Side note: It seems you consider 1-point and 2-point mistakes OK. I agree those are not big mistakes, but at dan level you still want to avoid those. If you do it every move in the opening, it can add up to losing 20 points in the opening, which is significant.

marvin · **#11**

Thanks kvasir, that is good move to consider and good point.
gennan, thank you for the explanation, now I understand your point much better. My idea was that I make W overconcentrated in sente, but E8 is too valuable for W as you mention.

In addition to things raised before, I decided to make a short summary, of things I would like to remember.
Part 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Position at move 42, B to play $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I did not realize the following is good result for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c W has sente to move out $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lets try to understand why this is good for B:
- The group after cut is very strong, W has some weakness
- Move is worth around 7pt (miai) by itself

So W would play differently, but it is important to realise this is good for B. (and not too slow)

marvin · **#12**

Part 2:
Do not play ko if opp has local threats. Or at least make a plan in advance. This is my reappearing problem. Here I thought this is a picnic ko for B, but the left group gets weak.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Position at move 54, B to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I am behind I should not worry about bad aji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Not time for this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . X . O X O . | $$ | . O X X . . X O . , . . O X . X O X . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . O X X . . O . . | $$ | . O . O O O O X X . . O O . . . O 1 . | $$ | . . O O X X X O . . . . . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . O . X . O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O , O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X . O X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O . . . X . O X . X O O . . | $$ | . O X X X O O O . . . O X . X . . . . | $$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- Don't resign too early even against considerably stronger opponent (here the swing went from w+21 to w+6 in 15 moves, even though I didn't make the game complicated, as suggested by kvasir).

Joaz Banbeck · **#13**

EdLee wrote:

Quote:

I'm not current with the latest on the magic sword,

Isn't the magic sword high approach, not low?...

Like I said, I'm not current. I didn't even know that they had moved the stone up.

Tournament game vs 3 dan EGF

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