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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #21 Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:40 pm 
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Yes, you made a few mistakes, but you also made good moves, so overall the game was not so bad compared to your correspondence games.

Additional remarks:

For :b25: if you didn't have the intention to play the ko, the solid connection C18 was better.

:b39: can be played elsewhere. The two stones are not important, they are not cutting stones and if White captures, you can still live with B16.


Even if :b77: was a misclick, it was a good move. When you try to kill a group, it is generally a good idea to be solid, and the kosumi doesn't leave any weaknesses.

:b99: is not needed. If White plays at A8 you can play at A6 and vice-versa.


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Post #22 Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:06 pm 
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Triton, I agree with your analyses, except hat 77 is more than ok, as jlt explained.

While 25 and following are indeed bad, I would also reconsider 23. Any ideas how to avoid that dire situation by playing a different move for 23?


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Post #23 Posted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:19 am 
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jlt wrote:
Yes, you made a few mistakes, but you also made good moves, so overall the game was not so bad compared to your correspondence games.

Additional remarks:

For :b25: if you didn't have the intention to play the ko, the solid connection C18 was better.

:b39: can be played elsewhere. The two stones are not important, they are not cutting stones and if White captures, you can still live with B16.


Even if :b77: was a misclick, it was a good move. When you try to kill a group, it is generally a good idea to be solid, and the kosumi doesn't leave any weaknesses.

:b99: is not needed. If White plays at A8 you can play at A6 and vice-versa.


Indeed, good points. Crazy to think how many moves can be gained when you just stop replying unnecessarily.

Knotwilg wrote:
Triton, I agree with your analyses, except hat 77 is more than ok, as jlt explained.

While 25 and following are indeed bad, I would also reconsider 23. Any ideas how to avoid that dire situation by playing a different move for 23?


Simplest idea is to play at C18, but it seems to me that the cut at F17 works. If my reading is correct, if white replies at G17, I play F18 and the two white stones are dead. If white replies at F18 after the cut, it leads to either a ladder favoring black or another variation that I cannot read fully but doesn't seem that bad.
(I've tried to think without putting stones on a board)

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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #24 Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:24 pm 
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Hey guys

I just finished a correspondance with a very frustrating loss for me. Can you guys please give me some pointers and what to look out for?



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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #25 Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:43 pm 
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I would say that you lost your game at the opening.

  • Try not to be locked in
  • Pay attention to cutting points

More specifically,

:w10: that move isn't really bad but I would prefer to play at P6 to get out to the center.

:w12: should be at Q5 (connect). Don't give your opponent a ponnuki facing the center without reason.

:w24: now you see that the position is horrible for White. White lives in gote, is completely locked in and Black has a thick shape facing the center. I guess that an AI would give Black 99% winrate now.

:w36: should be at N17. You are leaving a serious weakness.

:w46: now you see that again you live in gote and are completely surrounded by a thick shape. This is almost game over.

:w76: going out of a ladder that doesn't work?


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Post #26 Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:50 pm 
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This is a bizarre game. It combines the worst of beginner mistakes, like the wasted atari at 44, with the brightest of AI ideas, like the double ladder at 70. The first looks like hastily played, the second like intensively researched.

Probably this major inconsistency is typical of a correspondence game. I'm not very familiar with that format so I refrain from further comments.

I would call 98 the losing move. If played elsewhere (exercise) I'd call the game playable.


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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #27 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:35 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
It combines the worst of beginner mistakes, like the wasted atari at 44

Here's a whole board go problem for Triton, to help understand why 44 is so bad.

White to play, what is the best move, or even a good move? Propose several choices.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Knotwilg wrote:
with the brightest of AI ideas, like the double ladder at 70.

Black helped make white's moves look clever, if he just kept laddering the first ladder he would capture it.


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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #28 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:29 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
White to play, what is the best move, or even a good move? Propose several choices.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . W . . , . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W W . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . X . X W . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W W . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Some thoughts. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #29 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:26 am 
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Thanks a lot to you guys for your advice.

Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
It combines the worst of beginner mistakes, like the wasted atari at 44

Here's a whole board go problem for Triton, to help understand why 44 is so bad.

White to play, what is the best move, or even a good move? Propose several choices.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Knotwilg wrote:
with the brightest of AI ideas, like the double ladder at 70.

Black helped make white's moves look clever, if he just kept laddering the first ladder he would capture it.


I am not sure. Maybe an extension for the open side of the upper left corner? An invasion somewhere around K4?

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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #30 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:46 am 
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There are several good moves, but O19 is certainly not a good move, and the board position at move 46 of your game is the same as if you played O19 in Uberdude's question. The conclusion is that in the game, you shouldn't have made the exchange :w44: :b45: and you should have played :w46: directly instead.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #31 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:13 pm 
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BTW my choice

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Play on the border of 2 moyos.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #32 Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:51 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
BTW my choice

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Play on the border of 2 moyos.


Why not an extension from the top left?

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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #33 Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:20 am 
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Triton wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
BTW my choice

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Play on the border of 2 moyos.

Why not an extension from the top left?

An extension from the top left is perfectly reasonable. I don't think Knotwilg is saying that his move is the only good one. That said, lay out the position on a board, put down a White stone at 1, look at the position, pick up the White stone, put down a Black stone at 1, look at the position, pick up the Black stone, and repeat five times, and you will probably see why he is so excited about playing there.

At your level (and mine!) there are much much bigger mistakes than the difference between those two moves, so I would not obsess too much over it (in fact, it would be counterproductive).

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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #34 Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:11 am 
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Now I have an interesting game to share. This was played live on IGS this evening. My opponent resigned but I think he would have won if he had played it out.

My opinion:
- I would have played w10 at C9 in retrospect. This way if black had replied in a similar way I could have made a base + approached the corner in one move without overextending.
- w39 should have been at B7 to capture the stones.
- maybe I should have played G7 soon after black played at H7.
- w97 should have been at P10 maybe.
- w177 feels bad. Maybe S9 or H2 instead?




Attachments:
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Last edited by Triton on Sun May 24, 2020 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: My games, mid DDK - feel free to chime in :)
Post #35 Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:59 am 
Gosei

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I'll let other people do the review but I'll just say that your play in the latest game (and your questions about it) looks more like 10k to me than 16k. So that's great!

P.S. In general you will learn more from reviewing games you lost than games you won, particularly games you won by 70 points. (People will also be more willing to review them in detail.) This is not just because you made fewer mistakes that need to be addressed in the games you won by a lot, but also because you had fewer and less interesting problems to solve as you played.

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Post #36 Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:52 pm 
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Your self review is an important good habit so I'll respond to it.

- Maybe I should have replied to black :b15: before playing elsewhere?
Yes.

- I am not sure at all about :w34:. I feel I lucked out.
Indeed. It was the first questionable move, for me.If Black hane on the outside, it affects your weakest group, at the top. No need to come in so greedy: defend the top or cut off Black's big lump at the bottom for easy profit.

- Not sure :w48: accomplishes anything.
It aims to connect. Your stones may be heavy indeed.

- w100 is me trying to get an opening into the center but I think playing the hane at F12 might have been worth it? Edit: I feel like it was the right move as it also threatened the black group. But maybe I should have played that hane at some point.

b99 was a bizarre move; you did well to finally cut off Black's lump

- w116 feels slow. Maybe something around N10 instead? Though I feel that what I played is not bad either.

b115 was another bizarre move; it didn't matter anymore at this stage what you did

- w194 was probably not needed and that's what I thought when I played it, but I just wanted to be extra safe due to my lead.
indeed

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Post #37 Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:18 am 
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Thanks for your replies guys. Next time I'll be more selective of the games I post here :)

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Post #38 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 10:49 am 
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Hey guys. By mistake I have edited my last post with this message below. Reporting it here now:

Now I have an interesting game to share. This was played live on IGS this evening. My opponent resigned but I think he would have won if he had played it out.

My opinion:
- I would have played w10 at C9 in retrospect. This way if black had replied in a similar way I could have made a base + approached the corner in one move without overextending.
- w39 should have been at B7 to capture the stones.
- maybe I should have played G7 soon after black played at H7.
- w97 should have been at P10 maybe.
- w177 feels bad. Maybe S9 or H2 instead?



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Post #39 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:18 pm 
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A few remarks.

  • You insist several times (moves 43 and 67) on capturing the three stones B8, but this is small at this stage of the game. Thanks to the ponnuki, your group is already pretty safe. You don't have to be afraid of the cut D9, since you can capture the cutting stone in a loose ladder with E10.
  • I don't understand what :w71: is doing.
  • 101 not sente, small at this stage.
  • 113: locally, A18 is better, check that the cutting points are not problematic.
  • 117 is a bad shape. You are inviting your opponent to rip your keima.
  • 119 is a bad shape. You are inviting your opponent to rip your tobi.
  • 167 is a small gote move. Can you find a sente endgame move? If not, can you find a reverse sente one? Or a bigger gote move than the one you played in the game?

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