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 Post subject: Review request for 14k game
Post #1 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:16 am 
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I am around 14k and I played as black in this game. I felt I did ok at the beginning but I am not sure what to do when white starts to frame a huge box on the right starting around move 66. Any guidance would be great. Thanks!




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Post #2 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:39 pm 
Judan
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Hi plants, a few ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Review request for 14k game
Post #3 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:13 pm 
Judan

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plants wrote:
I am around 14k and I played as black in this game. I felt I did ok at the beginning but I am not sure what to do when white starts to frame a huge box on the right starting around move 66. Any guidance would be great. Thanks!


A couple of brief comments. :)

Old joke:

Patient: Doc, it hurts when I do this.

Doctor: Don't do that.

;)

Surprisingly often, the answer to the question, "What do I do in this situation?" is "Don't get into that situation."

By move 56 White has a good lead. Some of this is the result of Black's small scale, passive play early on, but a large part of it was letting White build a strong wall on the left side. At the least, Black should have pincered :w40:.

And at move :b53: Black could have extended to R-11 instead of picking up a few points by connecting on the second line. Black still has an uphill battle, but one that is well within the range of variability at this level.

Main focus: Think big. :)

Good luck! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Review request for 14k game
Post #4 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:20 am 
Gosei
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In your original post you asked about how to handle White 66. Let's have a look...

There are various points to be made about the play up to 66. I will only repeat Ed's point that :w64: below should have been at 65, which would have been a much bigger problem for Black than what happened in the game. Why would it have been trouble? Because it would have utilized the White stones at the top and along the left side of the board. The potential scale of White's framework at the top would have been larger than what White should be able to get on the right side. So :w64: was poor, :b65: pushing up was good in that it prevented a White play there later.

Next White turned at :w66:. What should Black think about this play? Look at the whole board (not just the lower right) and consider:

1. What should White's goal be in this position before :w66:?
2. What should Black's goal be after :w66:?

Give it some thought before looking at the rest of my comments.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 OP Question
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . X X . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


IMHO there are two very important points to understand:

1. The Black stones at the bottom (marked below) are not weak, and therefore, are not threatened by :w66: in the game. Ask yourself, if Black plays elsewhere on the board, what can White do to the stones at the bottom?

2. White has invested a lot of stones facing the upper center of the board. Note that the marked white stones make very little real territory so far. White needs to make sure that all the marked stones end up being useful in the game. White 66 on the other hand was played in a completely different part of the board. Can Black take advantage of that?

The first move that pops into my head is to hane at the head of two stones with :b1: below. This is very painful for White as it starts to erase the center influence of all the marked white stones. If White continues with :w2:, Black comes right back with the double hane of :b3:. Black is intent on doing the maximum damage to White's prospects here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Erasing White's center
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X @ . . . . . . @ X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . @ . . @ . . . @ @ X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . @ . . . . . . . . 5 X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X @ . . . . . . . 4 1 O O X X X . |
$$ | . . X @ . . . . . . . 3 2 . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X @ . . . . . , . 7 6 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X @ @ . . . . . . . 9 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 0 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . Y Y . . Y O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O Y . . Y . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A little something on Black 69 as well...
In the game Black answered :w66: with :b67:. Then when White played :w68:, Black answered again with :b69:. This was a very poor play. The reason is that :w68: is in the wrong direction and has almost no meaning. The key point is that the two marked stones on the left prevent White from doing anything significant around here. Locally Black should play :b69: at "a", limiting White's potential along the right side. On the board as a whole, Black should still go ahead and hane at "b" since it is still the key point overall.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . b O O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X B . . . . 4 . . . 2 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . 3 X X . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: Review request for 14k game
Post #5 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:39 am 
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Thanks all for the feedback, they are extremely helpful! I will incorporate these in my games and see how they go.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Review request for 14k game
Post #6 Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:59 pm 
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ez4u wrote:
In your original post you asked about how to handle White 66. Let's have a look...

There are various points to be made about the play up to 66. I will only repeat Ed's point that :w64: below should have been at 65, which would have been a much bigger problem for Black than what happened in the game. Why would it have been trouble? Because it would have utilized the White stones at the top and along the left side of the board. The potential scale of White's framework at the top would have been larger than what White should be able to get on the right side. So :w64: was poor, :b65: pushing up was good in that it prevented a White play there later.

Next White turned at :w66:. What should Black think about this play? Look at the whole board (not just the lower right) and consider:

1. What should White's goal be in this position before :w66:?
2. What should Black's goal be after :w66:?

Give it some thought before looking at the rest of my comments.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 OP Question
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . X X . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


IMHO there are two very important points to understand:

1. The Black stones at the bottom (marked below) are not weak, and therefore, are not threatened by :w66: in the game. Ask yourself, if Black plays elsewhere on the board, what can White do to the stones at the bottom?

2. White has invested a lot of stones facing the upper center of the board. Note that the marked white stones make very little real territory so far. White needs to make sure that all the marked stones end up being useful in the game. White 66 on the other hand was played in a completely different part of the board. Can Black take advantage of that?

The first move that pops into my head is to hane at the head of two stones with :b1: below. This is very painful for White as it starts to erase the center influence of all the marked white stones. If White continues with :w2:, Black comes right back with the double hane of :b3:. Black is intent on doing the maximum damage to White's prospects here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Erasing White's center
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X @ . . . . . . @ X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . @ . . @ . . . @ @ X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . @ . . . . . . . . 5 X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X @ . . . . . . . 4 1 O O X X X . |
$$ | . . X @ . . . . . . . 3 2 . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X @ . . . . . , . 7 6 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X @ @ . . . . . . . 9 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 0 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . Y Y . . Y O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O Y . . Y . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A little something on Black 69 as well...
In the game Black answered :w66: with :b67:. Then when White played :w68:, Black answered again with :b69:. This was a very poor play. The reason is that :w68: is in the wrong direction and has almost no meaning. The key point is that the two marked stones on the left prevent White from doing anything significant around here. Locally Black should play :b69: at "a", limiting White's potential along the right side. On the board as a whole, Black should still go ahead and hane at "b" since it is still the key point overall.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . b O O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X B . . . . 4 . . . 2 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . 3 X X . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I just re-read your last comment regarding black 69. You mentioned white 68 is in the "wrong direction" but I don't quite get what you mean by that. Could you explain a little further regarding that? Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Review request for 14k game
Post #7 Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:00 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1952
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 1691
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Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
plants wrote:
ez4u wrote:
In your original post you asked about how to handle White 66. Let's have a look...

[Snip...]

A little something on Black 69 as well...
In the game Black answered :w66: with :b67:. Then when White played :w68:, Black answered again with :b69:. This was a very poor play. The reason is that :w68: is in the wrong direction and has almost no meaning. The key point is that the two marked stones on the left prevent White from doing anything significant around here. Locally Black should play :b69: at "a", limiting White's potential along the right side. On the board as a whole, Black should still go ahead and hane at "b" since it is still the key point overall.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . b O O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X B . . . . 4 . . . 2 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . 3 X X . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I just re-read your last comment regarding black 69. You mentioned white 68 is in the "wrong direction" but I don't quite get what you mean by that. Could you explain a little further regarding that? Thanks!

When White plays :w1: below (68 in the game), let's assume that Black plays at :b2: (instead of 3 as in the game), that White continues with :w3: and Black ignores it to play :b4:. Now the question is what can White do with the combo of 1 and 3?
- Black's stones on the bottom side are much too strong for White to successfully attack. So what other way might White try to use 1 and 3?
- The space to the left is quite narrow and Black's marked stones are also strong here. If White plays something like :w5:, he can make a few points between 3 and 5. However, something like :b6: will limit what White can gain there while also further reducing White's potential points around the left-side white stones. Also the points that White can make around 1 and 3 are less than the reduction in potential points on the right side by Black playing at 2. Does this make sense? Can you follow my explanation?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . 4 X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X B . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X B . . . . 3 . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . 1 X X . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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