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Post #21 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:54 am 
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Calvin Clark wrote:
Ono, considering how the game evolved after this, how do you feel about move :w44: now? Which other moves did you consider?


I felt like :w44: didn't really help me in the center and even though I grabbed territory in the lower area, I feel like it wasn't worth it and a move like K5 or L6 (to make a horse head shape) would have been more interesting. As well as protecting my center influence, I feel like L6 attacks the lower part as well so Black has to make a choice from there. Do you agree?

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Post #22 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:02 pm 
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OnoNoGo wrote:
I felt like :w44: didn't really help me in the center and even though I grabbed territory in the lower area, I feel like it wasn't worth it and a move like K5 or L6 (to make a horse head shape) would have been more interesting. As well as protecting my center influence, I feel like L6 attacks the lower part as well so Black has to make a choice from there. Do you agree?


I'm not qualified to say. I just don't like the game move as I think it's too close to black's strong group and the fact that it got cut off is what made the game complex. I feel like any soft move near 'a' is sort of miai to black expanding 'b'. A shoulder hit 'c' (K4) may expand white, but it could be just the wrong idea and is likely to end in gote. White has known invasion possibilities at d-g, so I might try one of those and see if white's center stones will help indirectly; h-i would reduce black in the upper side and expand white, but the whole center feels like a big open skirt, so somehow I'm not seeing the moyo potential.

Maybe a stronger player can chime in?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Other ideas
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , i . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O . b h . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . X . . . . g . d . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . f e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #23 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . X . a . . 1 2 b . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I kinda like :w44:, aiming at "a" or "b". If :b45:, I think :w46:. :)

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #24 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:15 am 
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Very interesting comments about move :w44: Calvin and Bill. Maybe they are not the choice of the strongest players, but they sure make sense and give me another perspective on how to play Go.

Speaking of which, I just finished a game I'm kinda proud of. I tried to think more about sensible moves, take my time if I could when things get complicated and try to see ahead as far as possible. It lead me, to my surprise, to fight a lot more for influence than territory. I often gave up stones to grab more influence which I successfully turned into territory. I'm sure I made tons of mistake, but thanks to your many advice, I feel like I look at the game in a stronger way.



The first important reading I did was during the fight in the lower left corner. I decided to give up my stones in the corner and the few points that were there in order to build a wall towards the right side. My opponent played into it and after :w22: I felt like White was a lot better from this fight.

Concerning the fight at the top of the board, from :w52: to :w74:, I tried to calculate as much as possible but couldn't find a better way to go. If I try to capture Black stones, he gets away and manages to protect his corner and even though I gain a lot of influence, it didn't seem worth it at the time. But perhaps I'm wrong.

Thank you in advance for your comments!


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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #25 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:04 am 
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Great job on the win Ono! You used your time much better this time—I think your oppononent should use their time better though, haha.

Here are some of my comments. Once again, the comments and variations are to the best of *my* understanding!

EDIT: LoL
EdLee wrote:
:w26: Pretty sure this is not a good idea.
Approach from the more open, wider side ( F17 direction ).
.





Attachments:
OnoNoGo vs. toshi22 (commentary) .sgf [7.05 KiB]
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Last edited by WindCaliber on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #26 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:21 am 
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Thank you for some great comments WindCaliber! And yes I completely missed that snapback haha. Fortunately it didn't cost me much or anything. But you don't have to say that it is to the best of your understanding, I truly value your comments on my games and would love to have more in the future :tmbup: you definitely help me understand the biggest mistakes I make and that is the most important part!

Thanks again!

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Post #27 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Hi Ono,

:w8: Feels a bit soft on B. He ignored your approach.
Double approach, high D6 or low C6.

:b13: A joseki is push and cut.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 7 . .
$$ | . . X X X O . .
$$ | . . O O 1 O . .
$$ | . . 4 3 2 5 . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
After :b7:, W has variations.

:w18: Not sure about the game result: B gets a huge corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 X X X O . .
$$ | . . O O X O . .
$$ | . . . 1 O X 2 .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]

:w26: Hmm... this one. :study:
Approach from the more open, wider side ( F17 direction ).

:b29: C10.

:b41: Mis-click ?

:w42: W is very happy to just reply and block at o18.

:w52: R8 direction. ( Any local reply around M17 is too slow, too small for W. )

:w56: Bad.

:b57: After N17 atari, o16 atari -- you get a bad result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O X . X . . |
$$ . O 2 O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ . , . X O 3 4 O O . . |
$$ . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B var
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O X . X . . |
$$ . O 2 O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ . , . X O 3 5 O O . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w62: Running with this stone is a wrong idea. ( Throwing good money at bad. )
R8 direction.

:b75: Pass. R7 direction.

:w76: Finally. :)

:b77: Bad...

:w78: ...Unless W is confused. You are very happy to reply to :b77:, at Q7.
This exchange ( :b77: - :white: Q7 ) is bad for B, good for W.

Recurring big problem: :w42:, :w78: -- not understanding the value of a reply, when it is very good for you.

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:52 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Recurring big problem: :w42:, :w78: -- not understanding the value of a reply, when it is very good for you.

Hi EdLee

I agree completely! I'm going to keep an eye on these opportunities for replies that are good for me in my next games. Thank you very much for all your other comments, I truly appreciate it.

Concerning this:
EdLee wrote:
:w26: Hmm... this one. :study:
Approach from the more open, wider side ( F17 direction ).

If I understand correctly, I don't mind him extending his territory on the left side as long as I get my share of the top side if I approach with F17, right?

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Post #29 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Hi Ono,
Quote:
If I understand correctly, I don't mind him extending his territory on the left side as long as I get my share of the top side if I approach with F17, right?
At :b25:, use your right hand to cover up the right half of the board, including the tengen K-column.

Count how many :black: stones on the left half.
11
Count how many :white: stones on the left half.
6. (2 are dead; they don't count)
Now do the reverse:
Use your left hand and cover up the left half of the board,
exposing the center K-column. Same questions:

How many :black: stones on the right half?
1.
How many :white: stones on the right half?
4.
Do you think W has any big development on the left side?
Not impossible, but seems unlikely at the moment.
The :b26: approach/invasion would have to kill something big. Hmm...
Where, if any place, would W's development come from?
The top and right sides.
However...
AlphaGo may jump into 3-3 at C17! :mrgreen: All bets are off with AG. :blackeye:
So :b26: as an approach/invasion is one way to play; F17 open direction is another.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #30 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:05 am 
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Thank you EdLee! Really enjoyed this explanation.

I got myself 3 wins today and it took me to 9-kyu. Big thanks to all of you for helping me reach SDK in no time! Let's see if I can stay there in the future... But anyway, here is the last game that I played. My theme was trying to find simple moves that gave me both good shapes and that made sense in terms of influence or territory. As you guys pointed out, I often ignore a simple move that advantages me so this time I tried to keep an eye out for these moves. Let me hear about the mistakes, thank you a lot in advance!!! :bow:



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Post #31 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:29 am 
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Hi Ono,

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #32 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:54 am 
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Thank you EdLee!

Just finished a game where I played horribly! Fortunately my opponent didn't take too much advantage of it, but I was truly disappointed in myself and don't feel like I won this game. You'll see that my opponent approaches my corners in a very interesting manner, what would you recommend to play against that?



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Post #33 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Hi Ono,

:b11: Interesting shape. Not sure about the hane.
One line higher, a ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
W must check the ladder before the hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 3 5 . . . .
$$ | . . . , 2 O 4 . . .
$$ | . . . X 0 X 1 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . 9 7 8 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
Next, W has miai of (a) and (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm15
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . a . . .
$$ | . . . O O O 2 . . .
$$ | . . . , X O X 1 3 .
$$ | . . . X X X O X . .
$$ | . . . . . O O X b .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
W must read before :w5: hane.
In your game, if you cannot see a clearly good result after :b13: nudge, maybe consider just extend:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O 1 . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
Reference:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O 1 . .
$$ | . . . . X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Post #34 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Blocking at 3-3 seems possible too—which could lead to the basic 4-4 joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . 2 . . 4
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Post #35 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:19 pm 
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WindCaliber wrote:
Blocking at 3-3 seems possible too—which could lead to the basic 4-4 joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . 2 . . 4
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Why settle for joseki? :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #36 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:20 pm 
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A few comments on the early play. :)


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #37 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:01 am 
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Sorry guys for the silence, I was away for one week with very limited internet access! I want to thank you for your previous comments, very useful as always!

I did some Go study while I was gone but I'm now struggling to find my balance with what I've learned and how to apply it in my Go. I think I'm always afraid of letting my opponent make too much territory so I keep creating weak groups while attacking his weak groups or his influence. Many games get complicated with me struggling and then I get to win because I calculate better. So in my recent games I tried to get a better feel of how to invade and when to build my own territory. I don't think I'm doing too well, but it's work in progress as they say! :D

Here is an interesting game I just played. I was losing by about 10 points for a long time without much chances to come back but my opponent shot himself in the foot and gave tons of free stones in my territory and I won by 0.5 points. So objectively it's a lost game so I'm interested to hear your comments on it please.



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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #38 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:30 am 
Oza
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You play too close to strength. See the comments at:

6, 30, 60, 76, 82, 90

Endgame analysis at 114. The gap is widened.

In the end, you see a weakness and take advantage of it at 202.
Black plays needless moves inside your territory and you do well to pass.


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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #39 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:57 am 
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A couple of comments. :)

Go to Black 251.


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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: My games, looking for analysis!
Post #40 Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:27 am 
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Thank you Knotwilg and Bill, I learned so much through your comments. Especially what you said Knotwilg about me playing too much around my strength and being greedy, it was eye opening!

I just finished a game that I won fairly easily but I think it is because of what you told me, it just made my Go clicked somehow and I was able to really calculate ahead without fearing the invasions of my opponent. I'm sure I did a lot wrong in this game, but it felt good to keep attacking his groups with the objective of taking profit out of the fights, and even killing the attacked group twice. At move 149, it was quite stupid, even more when I had my eyes on D5 for a long time. But after he plays D5 himself, what would be the best way to proceed? Is there a possible invasion in his lower territory? Or maybe a good reduction? Thank you in advance for any possible answer + comments on the rest of the game!



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