It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:41 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #1 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:33 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 96
Liked others: 38
Was liked: 16
Rank: SDK
IGS: 8k
Hello,

this is a game between two L19 members - BlindGroup and myself. It was played on IGS with somewhat generous amount of time (maybe 3h total).

We have both annotated the game, and would appreciate any further comments.




EDIT:

For fun I also let Leela analyze the game (2.5 mins per move on a core i7), and plotted the graph of black's win probabilities per move. The horizontal axis is the move (ply) number and the vertical axis indicate black's win probability in percent. Values under 50% mean white has the advantage, values above 50% indicate that black is ahead.

Maybe this helps identifying key moments of the game.
Attachment:
gameplot.png
gameplot.png [ 24.61 KiB | Viewed 6060 times ]


Attachments:
BlindGroup_vs_Tapani_commented_20170828.sgf [9.5 KiB]
Downloaded 556 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:16 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Just a few quick comments on the early play.

:w6: E-03 is usual.

:b7: Having retained sente, Black can approach the top left corner.

:b13: The J-03 stone is a little far away for this play, perhaps.

:b17: P-08 is more solid.

:b21: O-03, the hanging connection, is superior. P-03 is bad shape.

:b23: I think that J-04 is best.

:w24: I think that J-04 is best.

:b25: Pushes White where he wants to go. Maybe G-04, maybe E-06.

:w26: Good! :)

:b27: Horrible. All you do is to strengthen White, and make bad shape besides.

:w28: Success!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: BlindGroup, Tapani
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:22 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 295
Was liked: 64
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Tapani wrote:
For fun I also let Leela analyze the game (2.5 mins per move on a core i7), and plotted the graph of black's win probabilities per move. The horizontal axis is the move (ply) number and the vertical axis indicate black's win probability in percent. Values under 50% mean white has the advantage, values above 50% indicate that black is ahead.


That's interesting! I thought the game was much more even in the early middle game. Apparently, not :-)

Move 24: Just to clarify, I thought that you'd need to respond. If not, you might still live, but you'd likely be small and enclosed.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:14 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 96
Liked others: 38
Was liked: 16
Rank: SDK
IGS: 8k
BlindGroup wrote:
That's interesting! I thought the game was much more even in the early middle game. Apparently, not :-)
Blindgroup,

Was also surprised about this. Felt that white was ok if not comfortable, but not yet winning by any means. And how that succesful reduction of the bottom gave white a lasting advantage for 150+ moves! Expected there to be far larger swings in the win chance estimations.


You also ask for feedback on :b81: and :b85:. I am much more curious about :b83:!

Would playing :b83: around R12 be bigger? And if white goes ahead and takes the stones with C8, black can play another stone to protect the huge moyo, maybe at L11.

For what it is worth, your :b85: is Leela's first choice, and your :b81: is Leela's third choice (first choice is K12). After eyeing through the analysis, I am very much surprised how often our moves are so close to some of Leela's top choices. Which in turn makes me suspicious about the moves that are not (like my :w82: threatening the four stones bottom left).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #5 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:32 am 
Beginner

Posts: 19
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 8
Here's an SGF with some comments:



Black does misplay the early fight a bit (although white does too), but the most interesting question seems to be around how black should get more out of white's invasion on the right side. I've picked out a particular place where black could play more strongly by threatening white's corner - both players could maybe play differently to avoid this, but the important thing is that black didn't try it at all, which lets white get away with the invasion too easily.


Attachments:
BlindGroup_vs_Tapani_commented_20170828.sgf [17.3 KiB]
Downloaded 517 times

This post by afar was liked by: Tapani
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #6 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:59 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 96
Liked others: 38
Was liked: 16
Rank: SDK
IGS: 8k
Thank you for your thorough comments.

After going through them a little more detailed, there are some minor questions:

The comment on move 15 about having a white stone outside black's wall:

So, given the choices between
A:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . X X O . |
$$ . X X X O O O . |
$$ . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

and
B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . X X O . |
$$ . X X X O O O . |
$$ . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

the former (A) is more preferrable as white? My gut feeling would have been the other way around - the exchange was good for black.

At move :w24:, you also suggest white J4, and show lines where black responds with H3 and H6. The reason I (white) did not play J4 was because I worried about black H5. Could not see if I was aliveor out after something like:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . O O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . 2 X . . 4 . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe, but it felt risky at the time.

Anyway, thanks once more for taking the time to review our game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #7 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:18 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1590
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Depending on the situation on the right side, this kind of possibility can be pretty annoying to Black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . X X O . |
$$ . X X X O O O . |
$$ . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

Maybe :w3: should be in a slightly different place, but you get the idea.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #8 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:17 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 19
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 8
Tapani wrote:
Thank you for your thorough comments.

After going through them a little more detailed, there are some minor questions:

The comment on move 15 about having a white stone outside black's wall:

So, given the choices between
A:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . X X O . |
$$ . X X X O O O . |
$$ . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

and
B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . X X O . |
$$ . X X X O O O . |
$$ . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

the former (A) is more preferrable as white? My gut feeling would have been the other way around - the exchange was good for black.


The first version has some awkwardness for both players, but black has the more obviously weird shape. dfan has already pointed out one line that white can aim at, whereas in the second (normal 3-3 invasion) variation white has no real forcing moves on the outside. This is a key point in judging the quality of positions, and can have very major implications on later fighting.

Also note that the wall is facing the 'wrong' way with respect to the bottom side and black's existing stones. I don't think that's unforgivable here, but it plays into how the position has to be judged.

Quote:
At move :w24:, you also suggest white J4, and show lines where black responds with H3 and H6. The reason I (white) did not play J4 was because I worried about black H5. Could not see if I was aliveor out after something like:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . O O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . 2 X . . 4 . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe, but it felt risky at the time.

Anyway, thanks once more for taking the time to review our game.


It's fair to be worried about this, but ultimately it's just one of those fighting things where you have to play the strong way and learn if it works or not. If the J4 move is not forcing, and does not live, then the shoulder hit is bad. But, it's such a strong local move that black will normally find it hard to resist, especially so early in the game.

I think your variation can be immediately improved:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . 4 O O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . 2 X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It seems most obvious to just play the connection above, keeping an eye on black's weaknesses; it will be hard for black to kill if white is threatening to break through and separate black's own groups. If black does not protect, white can move out there. If black does protect, white can try to find a stronger way to play to threaten the stones on the bottom, for instance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 7 . 4 O O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . 6 . 2 X . . 8 . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . . v 9 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 8 . 4 O O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . 6 . 2 X . 7 . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White's cut at the marked point seems quite concerning for black. White also has lots of liberties, as there's a free push (and other potential escapes) by playing above :b7: .

These lines are just from a quick glance and maybe I missed something, but the key point is that white's primary line of thought is 'how can I break out or at least cause black many weaknesses if he seals in'. By getting many forcing moves on the outside, white can hopefully end with quite a large area on the inside, and then come back to kill black's stones there.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup vs Tapani
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:15 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 295
Was liked: 64
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
I'm sorry for the delay, but thank you all for your comments. (I got sick last week...) Very helpful!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group