Don't call it a comeback...

sleepyEDB · #1

After a not-so-great beginning I'm pretty happy with how this one turned out, though I'm sure there are plenty of learning opportunities within! :lol:

side note: It's interesting that OGS doesn't display a rank below 25K online, making us appear evenly matched during the game, but the SGF file displays our true rankings afterward; revealing that I actually (supposedly?) have a two-stone advantage over my opponent. :scratch:

sleepy

Schachus · #2

You won this game for one reason: corners and sides are the most important things in go and you understood that but your opponent didnt understand it.

That being said, both players have big gaps in the basics of contact fighting(example 146(actually, black is still dead even if he captures your stone, but the fact that you played there in the first place is large evidence that you wouldnt have played the killing move, if he does(what is it?))) and connecting/disconnecting(example: your move at 34 doesnt make sense as it has no hope of connecting to your group, similar with 42, he could just disconnect it. However, he doesnt even try to disconnect you but ets you add several more stones until all is connected and you got a large corner) as well as identifying large areas(example: you play very small moves back and forth while black could for example cut 4 stones at e7. You connected them right in the moment, where they werent important, because something more important popped up, because black 107 threatened to seriously push inside your territory at j17, which you should protect. There are even bigger examples earlier in the game).

I suggest you play more on smaller boards to learn these basics, especially connecting and contact fighting

sleepyEDB · #3

Hi Schachus, thanks for the review!

Schachus wrote:

You won this game for one reason: corners and sides are the most important things in go and you understood that but your opponent didnt understand it.

Agreed. Once the skirmish in the lower-left corner was over I reassessed and tried to focus on staking out territory in the corners and sides

Schachus wrote:

That being said, both players have big gaps in the basics of contact fighting

Agreed again. My fighting skills are abysmal :oops:

Schachus wrote:

(example 146(actually, black is still dead even if he captures your stone, but the fact that you played there in the first place is large evidence that you wouldnt have played the killing move, if he does(what is it?)))

After he plays at B17, I play at A18 to prevent the tiger's mouth? Sorry, my reading skills are about equal to my fighting skills... :sad:

Schachus wrote:

and connecting/disconnecting(example: your move at 34 doesnt make sense as it has no hope of connecting to your group, similar with 42, he could just disconnect it. However, he doesnt even try to disconnect you but ets you add several more stones until all is connected and you got a large corner)

Thanks. I didn't want to attach anything further to the two white stones at F3 & G3 since they were dead, so I played 34 at D2 in an attempt to work into the corner further and start creating a base. Move 42 was for the same reason, working my way inside. It seems to have worked, but I am fully aware that was more because of my opponent's good graces (if you will) than my skill

Schachus wrote:

as well as identifying large areas(example: you play very small moves back and forth while black could for example cut 4 stones at e7. You connected them right in the moment, where they werent important, because something more important popped up, because black 107 threatened to seriously push inside your territory at j17, which you should protect. There are even bigger examples earlier in the game).

Agreed, and I struggle with this a lot; determining which is the most urgent/largest move at any given time, as well as when to continue playing locally vs. tenukiing. I should have realized the cut at E7 was vulnerable much earlier, but I connected as soon as I did, at move 107. Luckily, again, my opponent did not capitalize on his stone from 106, giving me the opportunity to play 110 at H17

Schachus wrote:

I suggest you play more on smaller boards to learn these basics, especially connecting and contact fighting

I started in March and played 9x9 exclusively until just recently when I decided to partake in the 'Go Research' group on OGS which is trying to determine the effectiveness of the many different approaches a DDK can take to improving; one of the prerequisites for which is playing live 19x19 games.

sleepy

Schachus · #4

sleepyEDB wrote:

Schachus wrote:

(example 146(actually, black is still dead even if he captures your stone, but the fact that you played there in the first place is large evidence that you wouldnt have played the killing move, if he does(what is it?)))

After he plays at B17, I play at A18 to prevent the tiger's mouth? Sorry, my reading skills are about equal to my fighting skills... :sad:

I would say, natural is to block at B16. That way, all your stones are connected and he is confined to a corner space that is obviously (maybe not obvious to you, but it will be at some point) too small for 2 eyes.

As I said, even after your play at B18, nothing is lost: if he ataris your stone at a18 to capture it, you need to play at b19 too prevent him from playing there and making two eyes. He can then capture your two stones, but if you now return to playing at b16, he is only getting one eye, so you havent lost anything, so B18 actually "works"(because he is so dead before, this doesnt bring him back to live, you might say). Still, B18 is a sign for bad basic instinct. If you intended to keep the b18 stone, then you should learn to count liberties: your stone has only 2 which is not more than any of his groups after the cut, so you cant save it. If It was intended as a placement("nakade") to destroy eyeshape, then it just isnt the key point because him playing there doesnt make eyeshape. He would make eyes by playing both a18 and b19, so those would be "vital points" for nakade. It isnt necessary here though, because he needs to get them both, so they are "miai"(if he takes one, you can still take the other one).

And while we are at the subject of living with/killing invasions: An invasion to the top right 3-3 would have had very good chances to survive, much better than top left where he invaded. It even has help from his stone at R14. As a matter of fact, if I were white, I would add a move inside my territory there to prevent this invasion(already earlier in the endgame!) and as black I would try it(attaching at r16 might be interesting too).

dfan · #5

sleepyEDB wrote:

After he plays at B17, I play at A18 to prevent the tiger's mouth? Sorry, my reading skills are about equal to my fighting skills... :sad:

Your first instinct should always be to reduce eyespace from the outside rather than play on vital points inside Black's shape. Playing inside with a tricky move is the correct move so often in tsumego problems (plus it's sexy) that people always want to try it first, but playing from the outside to reduce eyespace works more often, requires less reading, and is safer. (It is also often a good move even if your opponent can live, for external reasons.) This is a problem that persists well into SDK range, so if you overcome it now you will be well ahead of the curve.

sleepyEDB · #6

Schachus wrote:

I would say, natural is to block at B16. That way, all your stones are connected and he is confined to a corner space that is obviously (maybe not obvious to you, but it will be at some point) too small for 2 eyes.

Understood, thanks

Schachus wrote:

As I said, even after your play at B18, nothing is lost: if he ataris your stone at a18 to capture it, you need to play at b19 too prevent him from playing there and making two eyes. He can then capture your two stones, but if you now return to playing at b16, he is only getting one eye, so you havent lost anything, so B18 actually "works"(because he is so dead before, this doesnt bring him back to live, you might say). Still, B18 is a sign for bad basic instinct. If you intended to keep the b18 stone, then you should learn to count liberties: your stone has only 2 which is not more than any of his groups after the cut, so you cant save it. If It was intended as a placement("nakade") to destroy eyeshape, then it just isnt the key point because him playing there doesnt make eyeshape. He would make eyes by playing both a18 and b19, so those would be "vital points" for nakade. It isnt necessary here though, because he needs to get them both, so they are "miai"(if he takes one, you can still take the other one).

Again, thank you. I was not looking further than my stone getting captured so I did not consider this possibility.

Schachus wrote:

And while we are at the subject of living with/killing invasions: An invasion to the top right 3-3 would have had very good chances to survive, much better than top left where he invaded. It even has help from his stone at R14. As a matter of fact, if I were white, I would add a move inside my territory there to prevent this invasion(already earlier in the endgame!) and as black I would try it(attaching at r16 might be interesting too).

Yep, I certainly didn't see the vulnerability of that corner. :oops:

sleepy

sleepyEDB · #7

dfan wrote:

Your first instinct should always be to reduce eyespace from the outside rather than play on vital points inside Black's shape. Playing inside with a tricky move is the correct move so often in tsumego problems (plus it's sexy) that people always want to try it first, but playing from the outside to reduce eyespace works more often, requires less reading, and is safer. (It is also often a good move even if your opponent can live, for external reasons.) This is a problem that persists well into SDK range, so if you overcome it now you will be well ahead of the curve

Thanks for the reply, dfan! I'm assuming you are referencing the play at B16 after he's captured my two stones when you say 'reducing eyespace from the outside'?

sleepy

dfan · #8

sleepyEDB wrote:

dfan wrote:

Your first instinct should always be to reduce eyespace from the outside rather than play on vital points inside Black's shape. Playing inside with a tricky move is the correct move so often in tsumego problems (plus it's sexy) that people always want to try it first, but playing from the outside to reduce eyespace works more often, requires less reading, and is safer. (It is also often a good move even if your opponent can live, for external reasons.) This is a problem that persists well into SDK range, so if you overcome it now you will be well ahead of the curve

Thanks for the reply, dfan! I'm assuming you are referencing the play at B16 after he's captured my two stones when you say 'reducing eyespace from the outside'?

I mean that your first instinct for move 146 should be neither B18 nor A18, but B16.

sleepyEDB · #9

Got it, thanks!

sleepy

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