This is my game against a 4d I met. Lost pretty badly (surprise) but hoping to learn something from it. Thank you for the review!
Edit: I am playing white
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| Please provide review - 7k game http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15950 |
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| Author: | negapesuo [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:33 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Please provide review - 7k game | ||
This is my game against a 4d I met. Lost pretty badly (surprise) but hoping to learn something from it. Thank you for the review! Edit: I am playing white
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
First piece of advice: Take a modest handicap against a 4D. It doesn't have to be the 9 stones that your difference in ratings suggests, but at least 3 or 4 so that you can have a semi-competitive game. You will have more learning opportunities if you last longer. My overall impression is that you are missing fundamentals. This exposes you to tactical shots by stronger players. Move 7: This is timid. You can tenuki if you want, for you have a light stone with room to expand to either side. If you are going to reinforce it by expanding westward, make the 3-space jump: Then if he plays the natural Q3, you stand up at P4, and your extension is just right. However, if you play a two space jump, he can force you into a cramped position. ( Proverb: Extend the length of your wall plus one." see https://senseis.xmp.net/?ExtensionFromAWall ) Move 13: Although this technically may be joseeki played by some pros, the honte move is to reinforce your corner, usually with F17. E16 is playable too, but trickier. ( Proverb: "Make fist before striking" ) Move 15: Here he deviates from good fundamentals too. ( Proverb: "Even a moron connects against a peep" ) Don't forget that your peeping stone is light. Your first reflex should not be to reinforce it and become heavy. If he won't protect the peep, raise the stakes: Let him waste time chasing your peeping stone. He can waste several moves to capture one stone. Gotta eat breakfast. More later. |
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| Author: | dfan [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
negapesuo is White. |
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| Author: | negapesuo [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
Yes, sorry I should have specified that I am playing white. I entered a tournament game in OGS and this was the match up. No handicap stones in this tournament. Proverb: "Even a moron connects against a peep"... feels bad man... Joaz Banbeck wrote: First piece of advice: Take a modest handicap against a 4D. It doesn't have to be the 9 stones that your difference in ratings suggests, but at least 3 or 4 so that you can have a semi-competitive game. You will have more learning opportunities if you last longer.
My overall impression is that you are missing fundamentals. This exposes you to tactical shots by stronger players. Move 7: This is timid. You can tenuki if you want, for you have a light stone with room to expand to either side. If you are going to reinforce it by expanding westward, make the 3-space jump: Then if he plays the natural Q3, you stand up at P4, and your extension is just right. However, if you play a two space jump, he can force you into a cramped position. ( Proverb: Extend the length of your wall plus one." see https://senseis.xmp.net/?ExtensionFromAWall ) Move 13: Although this technically may be joseeki played by some pros, the honte move is to reinforce your corner, usually with F17. E16 is playable too, but trickier. ( Proverb: "Make fist before striking" ) Move 15: Here he deviates from good fundamentals too. ( Proverb: "Even a moron connects against a peep" ) Don't forget that your peeping stone is light. Your first reflex should not be to reinforce it and become heavy. If he won't protect the peep, raise the stakes: Let him waste time chasing your peeping stone. He can waste several moves to capture one stone. Gotta eat breakfast. More later. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
negapesuo wrote: Yes, sorry I should have specified that I am playing white... Ooops, I just reflexively assumed black. My assumption was confirmed by M3 at move 7. It is not a 4D move. Up to move 13 white was playing more like a 4D than black. negapesuo wrote: Proverb: "Even a moron connects against a peep"... feels bad man... Sorry. I didn't make up the quote, I just recalled it. I wouldn't have used it here if I had realized that you were white. This is one of the instances in which you should stick to fundamentals since you are playing someone so much stronger. Defend the peep. He still has to patch at F17 or nearby. The play at 'a' is not as good as 'b', for 'b' accomplishes much the same goal, and is better shape. Moves 'c' through 'f' are probably bigger. |
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| Author: | Calvin Clark [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
I don't like the   exchange. It helps black too much.I think white should preserve the chance to wedge at  below. If black ataris from the outside, black is left with two cutting points rather than a solid string with 7 liberties:Even if black resists with the inside atari, white can handle this and is better off than in the game. Because of this, I think  below is a mistake, but I'm not 4d, so maybe your opponent has a plan here. |
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| Author: | negapesuo [ Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
Thanks, I didn't even consider that. I really shouldn't have given him that solid wall... Calvin Clark wrote: I don't like the
exchange. It helps black too much.I think white should preserve the chance to wedge at below. If black ataris from the outside, black is left with two cutting points rather than a solid string with 7 liberties:Even if black resists with the inside atari, white can handle this and is better off than in the game. Because of this, I think below is a mistake, but I'm not 4d, so maybe your opponent has a plan here. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: My assumption was confirmed by M3 at move 7. It is not a 4D move. Curious: anyone with access to LZ/Elf's winrate for  ? 
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| Author: | Tryss [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
EdLee wrote: Quote: My assumption was confirmed by M3 at move 7. It is not a 4D move. Curious: anyone with access to LZ/Elf's winrate for ? For , LZ wants to tenuki to either approach (not invade !) the lower left corner, or making a shimari in the top left corner. But the move he played is fine (-0.3% when I play the move and let it evaluate for 10k+ playouts with network #153 ). The 3 spaces extension is worse (-1.9%)LZ #153 wouldn't kick as an answer to L3 (-6%), but press it with the following sequence : |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
I agree with Joaz's general impression that negapesuo as white played a good or perhaps slightly better early opening (but disagree with most of his per move criticisms of black and white!). But once the fighting started the dan player demonstated his superior direction and shape skills and quickly got a large advantage. EdLee wrote: Quote: My assumption was confirmed by M3 at move 7. It is not a 4D move. Curious: anyone with access to LZ/Elf's winrate for ? Uberdude's opinion of this move 3 years ago pre strong bot era. 3-space extension is definitely more common and the default move (which I play and worry about invasions because I often mess that up), but 2-space is sometimes seen (confirmed with several hundred pro hits in waltheri vs thousand for 3-space). I would expect most dan players to 3-space, but seeing a 2-space wouldn't make me think they are a noob. Uberdude's opinion now: LeelaZero has a noticeable preference for the 2-space over 3-space following Shusaku's kosumi in many positions. It appear to be teaching us this should be considered the default local move (tenuki is often best when there are 3-4s to approach or 4-4s to invade/approach in the opening). So seeing it now I would expect the player to be influenced by bots, and indeed I recognise black's username as someone I know follows the bot scene. An important consideration is the colour of the lower left corner: if it is white then I think (and am supported by pro pattern search) 2-space is less likely to be good (one reason is white's checking extension on the left is a building extension from his corner) whereas if it's a black corner the 2-space is harder to bully (but in both cases 3-space several times more popular with numbers like 200 vs 50). The classic reason 2-space was bad is if you kick, extend, then the checking extension is painful, LZ says don't extend but make another speedy 2-space extension. LZ #157's opinion: unsurprisingly #1 is top left shimari or approach left, but 2-space is only -0.2% and is considered a bit. 3-space is -1.2%. So neither a big mistake, but it prefers 2-space. move 14. I think not connecting against the peep is good (LZ agrees 1% better), and displays a good attitude for a 7k of not playing puppy go. I wouldn't criticise connect either though and it is simpler. move 15 is pretty terrible for a 4d. move 16 nice and flexible, also think about jump. move 18 nice flexible again. move 22: this is the best local move (LZ agrees), better than d11, for that would allow black b12 in sente, whereas if you atari and black connects then if you d11 (probably tenuki best for a while) b12 is gote. Of course black probably won't connect, at least not for a while, but the ko is quite heavy for him as if you win it his ko stone becomes dumb and your d15 aji is useful again (e.g. with f15). Looking at the whole board k3 would be nice to pressure the 2-space, as then q3 would be nice so probably he slides to r2. move 26: you could f6 to build the left, as we see kick isn't a sure sente. move 27 could be overplay. move 31 sure overplay, e6 proper. move 32 wedge indeed nicer. move 34: maybe g5 move 38-40: and so the fight begins and the big mistakes come. Atari and solid connect isn't good: if you are going to atari then at least h4 connect to make h6 efficient and make black connecting up on the lower side harder. But how about h5 extend directly, keeping the aji of cut (the idea is as you extend to the right you are trying to build miai of the cut for a ladder/net/squeeze and plays around j3 to gobble up black's stones there) or just cut directly (LZ's #1). Miai building is very common idea in fights like this. This combo lost 20% for LZ. move 48: play g3 atari to spoil black's shape and f2 hane connect to bolster corner. 2 stones are not so important (and if you did want to play a move then solid k4 is better). move 50 is good, but the problem is black's lower group is safe, yours isn't, and his left one can't be surrounded. Also g2 means c3 is troublesome. move 52 ok. move 56 is bad, the g12 stone is not important (other than helping the knight's move not be cut easily). You need to think now what you want to accomplish. Possible goals: help lower side group (e.g. m4, something in l9 area), defend lower left at e2. It would be nice if you could cut black around g9 but seems impossible. move 60 is similarly bad, you are going after 1 unimportant stone whilst black gets much more in return. Even r14 tenuki would be better, though helping your lower side group would be sensible (cutting actually hurts it because it gives black all those sente moves). move 76: what? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Quote: My assumption was confirmed by M3 at move 7. It is not a 4D move. Curious: anyone with access to LZ/Elf's winrate for ? I actually disagree with Joaz about whether the two space extension is a 4 dan move. Although, like Uberdude my guess would be that most 4 dans would choose the three space extension over the two space extension. But I have always preferred the keima, , as a rule. If White later plays "b" I like "c". (On the whole board I prefer the shimari at "a". Before the bot era I would have preferred "d", aiming at a mini-Chinese on the left side.)I'm curious, too. What does Elf or Leela Zero say about the keima? |
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| Author: | Tryss [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
LZ #153 prefer the 2 space extension to your keima, but it like it a little better than the 3 space extension. It seems that for LZ, the "problem" of the keima is the weakness at a |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
Thanks, Tryss. 
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
If the bottom left is black (and more so if it's actually a moyo rather than just a corner stone) then I might keima, but with it white I don't like it much. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Please provide review - 7k game |
Uberdude wrote: If the bottom left is black (and more so if it's actually a moyo rather than just a corner stone) then I might keima, but with it white I don't like it much. Yeah, I would prefer the approach at F-03 to any play in the bottom right corner. |
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