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 Post subject: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #1 Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:33 pm 
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So I just played a game on KGS against a 6kyu KGS. It's around my level so should've been an even game.

I wanted to post this game here for review because it's so typical for my style of play. I have a decent opening, where I usually manage to create several weak-ish or weak groups for my opponents, while I am in a stronger position.
But then the moment comes to go for one of those weak groups, and for some reason(s), I always fail in that.

By failing I don't mean: fail to kill. Even without killing, I'd usually win the game on territory, because you usually gain a lot by just messing with groups.
By failing I mean: it's me who ends up losing the chase and in fact losing a group.

I need to know what it comes down to. How can I learn from this? Is it that I play the wrong shapes? Do I play too fast and leave too many weaknesses behind? Am I going after things that are impossible to go after?
Is it just basic reading that I lack and my opponent doesn't?

Really hope someone can shed some light on this.

I also include a game I played earlier. I've already reviewed this with my sensei so no need for a big review there, I just include it because it's another great example of me creating a favorable board with many targets to attack, only to get got myself in the end.

Game 1


Game 2


Really appreciate any help you can give me.
Especially with specific focus on area's to improve in.

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #2 Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:31 pm 
Oza
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Quote:
...I wanted to post this game here for review because it's so typical for my style of play. I have a decent opening, where I usually manage to create several weak-ish or weak groups for my opponents, while I am in a stronger position.
But then the moment comes to go for one of those weak groups...


In game 1, where is this transition point in your understanding?

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #3 Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Commenting on game 1. I don't feel like this was ever a great position for White.

I don't like :w20:. It seems too low - not enough of an attack, and kind of committed to making a small territory here. That later gives Black a nice move at S5 threatening to take it all away, which he does. I'd be more interested in a hane at O15 followed by a cap at O12. (edit:) A wedge at O17 might also turn out well.

(Added in an edit:) Thinking about :w24:, I think you have too many stones in that corner, and they aren't doing enough. How about moving it one line down, to P13? Then, if Black wants to move out with that stone, he should end up somewhat heavier.

:b35: seems difficult to handle. I think C11 is likely misplaced, C15 is probably larger. In the sequence from :b39: you are just answering every move, which is not how you win games. At :w42: for example I'd be tempted to use the fact that you've approached the corner from two sides, and play something like C5, just so as not to be completely passive.

:w82: deserves to lose the game. You can't just give up the ko. L16/L17 might be a ko threat and followup, or something threatening the top left black group. Anything. To make matters worse, it's connecting an unimportant stone, leaving a huge weakness (the L13 atari) behind.

White 112 does nothing, and the game is close to over a few moves later when Black exploits the L13 weakness. 136 and 137 are passing moves, but good idea attacking the black corner at W 138 though, that was indeed getting weak.

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:23 am 
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ez4u wrote:
Quote:
...I wanted to post this game here for review because it's so typical for my style of play. I have a decent opening, where I usually manage to create several weak-ish or weak groups for my opponents, while I am in a stronger position.
But then the moment comes to go for one of those weak groups...


In game 1, where is this transition point in your understanding?


For me, personally. The game started slipping away with black 121. Before that, I felt I had a good position, even despite the weak black group got away.

Leela 11 supports me in that thinking, having white ahead with like 70% to win for a long time. Though with the black group escaping, it slowly decreases, up until around 121, too, where black starts taking the lead and with some mistakes from me, where black gets ahead by a lot.

@bernds
Thanks for the comments. I don't necessarily agree, but possibly I'm wrong. I felt pretty good as white throughout most of the game. A sharper player probably could've taken advantage of black's weaknesses more and white's group were all fairly solid, I think. But like I said, maybe I'm wrong.
Though Leela also believes white to be ahead (by quite a lot at one point) up until move 120-130 somewhere.

You've a good point about that ko, though. Especially since black has way more to lose, it's a ko I should welcome.
For some reason, I still dislike ko's. Probably because I haven't a lot of experience with them, but that won't get better by ignoring them :D

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:58 am 
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I was curious and ran your first game through Lizzie since she was accessible at the time. (In my experience, they are similar at our level.)

I got the same winrates that you did:

Attachment:
2018-08-26 Ian Butler LzWR.png
2018-08-26 Ian Butler LzWR.png [ 67.06 KiB | Viewed 5069 times ]


But I have a different interpretation of what went wrong. I think the main issue is that you are focusing on killing and territory, while in this game, Lizzie thinks you have more opportunities playing for influence.

For example, at move 82, you decline to fight the ko, and allow black to get out without any compensation. But this only reduces your winrate from 80 to 70%. A loss, but Lizzie still thinks you have the advantage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . , . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . O X . X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . W O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


You seem upset that you were not able to kill black's stones, but Lizzie does not seem to think that this was a big problem. For example, at move 60, Lizzie seems to think that a and b kill and thinks your move lets them live. (She thinks black should ignore your move and jump left with the weak group.) She prefers a and b, but your move only reduces the winrate by 5 percent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . , . X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . b X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


From what I can tell from Lizzie's preferred moves and the resulting variations, she seems to think that if you play in the bottom left corner black will either have to give up the corner with little compensation or give you territory in the lower left of the center. The first move where Lizzie prefers this is actually move 82 where she wants to leverage the ko to do it. But even without the ko, she thinks this is the way to go. For example, move 110 is the move where you fall below 50 percent winrate with a. She thinks you could have avoided that with the following:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O a . X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O X . . . . . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . O X . X X . . . . . O X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . O X X X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . O . O O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . O . O O O O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X |
$$ | . 5 7 . . O . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . 4 1 3 0 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 X 8 O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O X . . . . . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . O X . X X . . . . . O X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . O X X X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . O . O O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . O . O O O O |
$$ | . X . . . 7 0 . . . . . . X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . 6 . 9 . . . . . X . . . X |
$$ | . O O . 1 O 4 . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X 2 3 5 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Lizzie eventually kills the black stones in the middle and white gets center territory. At my current skill level, I'd never be able to read this out in game, but it illustrates where Lizzie thinks your opportunity is starting with move 82. In other sequences, white takes up a position in the corner and leaves black with weak group given the surrounding white stones. Here is what she prefers to your a at 106:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O . . . . . . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . O X . X X . . . . . O X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . @ X X X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . a . . . @ . @ @ X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . O . O O O O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . 8 . . . . . . . . . X . . . X |
$$ | . 7 . 9 0 O . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In all of these sequences, white's marked stones play an important role. The decline in in the winrate that lizzie thinks white could achieve starting with move 114 seems to be due to black cutting these stones off from the center.

Looking at all of this as someone who is only slightly stronger than you, I think that the strategy necessy to win after move 82 is probably too advanced to expect yourself to play right now. I don't think you should ignore it, but I think that explains why players like @bernds and @ez4u disagreed with Lizzie's assessment. From my experience with Lizzie, I'd recommend going back to the moves up to 82 and see what moves you might have made to put yourself in a position that does not require such a complicated strategy to win.

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:39 am 
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Cool, thanks for that interpretation, BlindGroup!

I'm not necessarily sad or frustrated or so that I wasn't able to kill that group. I know I don't have to kill groups to win the game. I was a bit bummed out that I ended up getting caught instead, though :lol: That is a returning mistake for me and I want to avoid just that.

Chasing groups is not about killing per se (though at times it should be and I lack that finesse to finish off a group often), but about making points while your opponent is struggling for life and not making anything in the process. So not killing it isn't bad. In most of these games, I am in a strong position and my opponent is not. It's just that usually I end up overextending or leaving some weakness I wasn't aware of and my group gets caught. Then the game shifts immensily because:

a) I lose several stones. Which can be a 20 point change.
b) it usually lets the opponents weak group connect with another (weak) group, meaning I lose infinity points :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:59 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Cool, thanks for that interpretation, BlindGroup!

I'm not necessarily sad or frustrated or so that I wasn't able to kill that group. I know I don't have to kill groups to win the game. I was a bit bummed out that I ended up getting caught instead, though :lol: That is a returning mistake for me and I want to avoid just that.

Chasing groups is not about killing per se (though at times it should be and I lack that finesse to finish off a group often), but about making points while your opponent is struggling for life and not making anything in the process. So not killing it isn't bad. In most of these games, I am in a strong position and my opponent is not. It's just that usually I end up overextending or leaving some weakness I wasn't aware of and my group gets caught. Then the game shifts immensily because:

a) I lose several stones. Which can be a 20 point change.
b) it usually lets the opponents weak group connect with another (weak) group, meaning I lose infinity points :cool:


Definitely the right attitude. Killing in my experience is often quite a bit more difficult than it seems at first ;-) The thing that frustrated me about 7k-6k on KGS is that the majority of players are willing to jump in almost anywhere. So, you often end up in a situation where you have to kill something in order to have territory. And like you said, I often ended up with a weakness that my opponent exploited to get free or live. There are two things that I think got me through this to 5k-4k: (1.) I started making a point of trying to learn how to use and build influence. That ultimately either allowed me to profit in the center by forcing these overly deep invasions to live small or when necessary, kill them outright. It is a LOT easier to fight when you have a wall to use to your advantage. (2.) I spent time explicitly studying shape. The book that really helped me the most with this is "The Theory and Practice of Shapes" by Valery Shikshin. The book is out of print and can be hard to find, but for some reason, his treatment of the subject really worked for me in a way that other books on the subject hadn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:40 pm 
Honinbo

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It is true that you don't always have to kill to win, and single mindedly going for the kill is not good strategy. But you have to be able to go for the early lunch, to deliver the coup de grace. I am reminded of a recurrent line in Le Morte D'Arthur:
Quote:
It repenteth me that you yet live.

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #9 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:50 pm 
Honinbo

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Anyway, Leela thinks that White 126 was the game losing move, and White 110 and 112 could have been. It might pay you to reflect upon those moves. I confess that White 126 baffles me. White 110 I at least see a threat. :)

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Visualize whirled peas.

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 Post subject: Re: Requesting review to help improve my play (6 kyu KGS)
Post #10 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Anyway, Leela thinks that White 126 was the game losing move, and White 110 and 112 could have been. It might pay you to reflect upon those moves. I confess that White 126 baffles me. White 110 I at least see a threat. :)


It's the lower left corner again. Leela likes the invasion even after 110, but at that point, the move is much less valuable because black can just opt to keep the corner and white can't do much with the influence. However, after the marked stones are in place, that influence could once again be useful. Lizzie prefers the following for 126:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X X . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O O O X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O X . . O O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . O X . X X . . O X X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . X . O . O X X X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . O X . X O . O O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . @ X . X , X X X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . @ . @ 9 . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . O . O O O O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X |
$$ | . 5 7 . . O . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . 4 1 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 X 8 O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black then trades his group in the upper left for the lower side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X X . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O O O X . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . X O 9 . . 6 . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O X 7 8 O O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . O X . X X . 0 O X X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . X . O . O X X X . X . X . |
$$ | . O O . O X . X O . O O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X 4 X , X X X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . O . O O O O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X |
$$ | . O O . 2 O 5 . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . X O O 1 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by BlindGroup was liked by: Bill Spight
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