It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:36 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Early Middle Game Question
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:53 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 295
Was liked: 64
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
I recently played a game where it seems that I fundamentally misjudged the game at the start of the middle game. I was playing on Fox, and surprisingly, we got fairly far into the fuseki before the middle game started!

That said, I had to play white on this board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a d . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . e . . . . . . . . . f . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . b . . , . . c . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Two questions:

1. When I got to this point in the game, I thought -- Wow! I really got outplayed in the fuseki, but Lizzie seems to think that white is ahead with a 60% chance of winning. Am I just off? My guess is that I am undervaluing the stones at R6 and C6, but to me it seems that I have four reasonably solid groups -- two with very little territory (those on top) and two with the "normal" amount (those on bottom). Black's positions are certainly thinner, but he (a.) has potential to expand them into the center and (b.) I can't really invade them without allowing him to build up in another area.

2. What should white's plan be and specifically, what is the next move? I considered A-F. Lizzie prefers E. The idea being to threaten black's three stone column and use the resulting bulk to attack the group on the left. Is that obviously the right move at this point? I thought about pressing white on the right with something like A, but with the position of the black group on top, it's not clear to me that I can profit from the resulting influence. I also thought about B or C, but it seems too early for those. they just give black a chance to secure the white stones in response. Even if I then play K4, I'm behind on territory. I feel like this is one of those situations where I just don't understand one of the positions on the board. In the game, I decided to try to break up black's position with D, which Lizzie did not like at all.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early Middle Game Question
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:07 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1590
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
e is certainly the move that leaps out to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Q . e . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y Y Y . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Three groups in a row are weak (to varying degrees). Playing e strengthens your weak group while weakening both of his. It's the kind of move that you dread seeing as Black. I don't know exactly how the fight is going to turn out but I play this sort of move on principle and save my thinking time for the tactics in the fight that follows.

If you are a sector line fan, as I am, your White group used to be inside a Black sector line; now both Black groups are inside White sector lines. That's a huge turnaround.


This post by dfan was liked by: BlindGroup
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early Middle Game Question
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:39 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
BlindGroup wrote:
I recently played a game where it seems that I fundamentally misjudged the game at the start of the middle game. I was playing on Fox, and surprisingly, we got fairly far into the fuseki before the middle game started!

That said, I had to play white on this board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a d . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . e . . . . . . . . . f . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . b . . , . . c . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Two questions:

1. When I got to this point in the game, I thought -- Wow! I really got outplayed in the fuseki, but Lizzie seems to think that white is ahead with a 60% chance of winning. Am I just off? My guess is that I am undervaluing the stones at R6 and C6, but to me it seems that I have four reasonably solid groups -- two with very little territory (those on top) and two with the "normal" amount (those on bottom). Black's positions are certainly thinner, but he (a.) has potential to expand them into the center and (b.) I can't really invade them without allowing him to build up in another area.


Group strength is quite important. BTW, Lizzie's evaluation puts paid to those who think that bots prefer territory.

Quote:
2. What should white's plan be and specifically, what is the next move? I considered A-F. Lizzie prefers E. The idea being to threaten black's three stone column and use the resulting bulk to attack the group on the left. Is that obviously the right move at this point?


It jumps out to me. And, given my inclination to attack at the time, it would have when I was a DDK, as well. ;)

Quote:
I thought about pressing white on the right with something like A, but with the position of the black group on top, it's not clear to me that I can profit from the resulting influence.


My feeling is that White's central stones, marked, reduce Black's potential in the center, as well as supporting Black's attack on the left side. So invading the right seems like the right idea. (OC, the attack on the left side comes first.) Best play probably depends upon the attack on the left side, but f looks like a good place to start. Also consider g as an important option, perhaps as a probe. A successful invasion will probably involve sacrificing some stones.

Quote:
I feel like this is one of those situations where I just don't understand one of the positions on the board. In the game, I decided to try to break up black's position with D, which Lizzie did not like at all.


An invasion of the right side is premature, whether d is the right place to start or not. Black should be able to take sente and strengthen the left side, which could well put him ahead.

P.S. White can invade the top side, as well. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: BlindGroup
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early Middle Game Question
Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:38 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 295
Was liked: 64
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Just had a chance to try it out at move 60. I'd say it worked well, despite my boneheaded move at 68. Although, I managed to get away with it. I think I may have spent too much time playing on Fox ;-)



Attachments:
2018-10-15 W Fox 1D.sgf [3.63 KiB]
Downloaded 440 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early Middle Game Question
Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:20 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1590
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Not that :w60: in your second game is necessarily a bad move, but I think it's a pretty different situation from the first game. This time both Black groups to either side of your single stone are significantly stronger, so you are mostly trying to run rather than to attack.

My first instinct in the area would be something like L4, trying to reduce Black without committing to saving the one stone at O3. I'm not sure you're done attacking Black's group in the upper left, either.


This post by dfan was liked by: BlindGroup
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Early Middle Game Question
Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:59 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 388
Liked others: 295
Was liked: 64
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
dfan wrote:
Not that :w60: in your second game is necessarily a bad move, but I think it's a pretty different situation from the first game. This time both Black groups to either side of your single stone are significantly stronger, so you are mostly trying to run rather than to attack.

My first instinct in the area would be something like L4, trying to reduce Black without committing to saving the one stone at O3. I'm not sure you're done attacking Black's group in the upper left, either.


I get that the position is different. Honestly, I played the move largely because it didn't seem any worse than the other things I considered, and I just to see what would happen. Leela preferred pressing on top with J16, but turned out that she like my move just slightly more. L4 is an interesting idea. I'll have to think about it!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group