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 Post subject: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Any kind of criticism, suggestions are welcome. Game is attached below.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:34 pm 
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The first remark I would make is that you should apply the proverb Corners, then sides, then center. For instance, :b7: is an armpit hit, this is usually bad. At early stages of the game, it's better to approach a corner (for instance F3 or C6).

Another example is move 123. You are playing on the fifth line, but to make territory you should play on the third line (or sometimes the fourth).

Also, look at the whole board. After :w32:, White has a huge wall, and threatens to make a very large territory on the lower edge, so you should try to play towards that area (or better, you should have noticed that after :w20: ). Other example : :b53: doesn't make many points. There are much larger areas on the board.


A few other remarks:

:b15: is almost useless. Your group is already safe, there is no need to reinforce it. Instead, you can approach a corner, or pincer the weak O3 group.

:b17: I don't see any reason not to use the solid connection Q3 (assuming you want to connect the stones).

:b27: you capture one stone but the global result is bad after :w30: because White's wall becomes very strong. (In fact, White could have omitted :w30: and in that case you would have lost the initiative, which is also bad.) You should leave these kinds of small captures for the endgame.

(I can see other bad moves on both sides but won't comment everything.)

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Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:04 pm 
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This post by EdLee was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Hi xoxox,

:b7: Curious about the engine's opinion.

:b9: Strange.

:b13: This one depends on your plan...

:b15: ...if this was your plan for :b13:, then it's a bad plan ( very slow ).
If you didn't have a plan for :b13:, which is very likely, then it makes sense you ended up with a bad combination of ( :b13: + :b15: = too slow ).

:b17: Maybe you played this move because in the past, you had some bad experience with your opponents jumping into your 3-3 and destroyed your corner ?
If so, that's misplaced thinking here. Just connect solidly at Q3.
Study why Q3 is better than your :b17: .

:b21: Very slow, almost a pass. Moreover, ( :b21: + :w22: ) is good for :white: .

:b23: Ditto: very slow, almost a pass.

Without looking at the rest of the game, we can already see from ( :b15:, :b21:, :b23: ) that you very often play very slow, very small moves. This is due to errors in your local and global evaluation ( assessment of the whole board situation ).

Can you see why ( :b15:, :b21:, :b23: ) are very slow and small ?

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #5 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:11 am 
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@EdLee: I don't have access to LeelaZero right now, but I just checked on Leela 0.11.0 what it thinks about move 7.

After move 7 is played, and after 60000 simulations, the position evaluation is about B+0.3.
If instead of R9 Black plays C6, the position is B+2.7
If instead of R9 Black plays F3, the position is B+2.2
If instead of R9 Black plays R8, the position is B+1.5

I don't have the patience to check other moves, as my computer is rather slow. In summary, move 7 is not a big mistake but is considered as a ~2 point loss compared to approaching the lower left corner with C6 or F3.

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Post #6 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:31 am 
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Hi jlt,

Thanks. 2% for a super-human engine is quite negligible for ddk or sdk. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #7 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:42 am 
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LZ think it's closer to a -4% mistake, with black winrate going from 57% to 53%. She prefer to play on the lower left (3-3 or usual approach at C6/F3)

But :b9: is worse (-4.6%, with black winrate now under 50%)

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #8 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:23 am 
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EdLee: not 2% but 2 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #9 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:29 am 
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jlt wrote:
For instance, :b7: is an armpit hit, this is usually bad.


Yes, this is usually bad but in Chinese fuseki I have seen this move in books, video analysis etc. It might not be so bad here and probably depends upon follow up moves, which I don't think I played very accurately.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #10 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:39 am 
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jlt wrote:
Another example is move 123. You are playing on the fifth line, but to make territory you should play on the third line (or sometimes the fourth).


Yes, I realised that soon after making that move. I may be was thinking about influence or something like that, which I think is wrong idea in given position. One can only learn by playing wrong moves first.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #11 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:53 am 
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jlt wrote:
Also, look at the whole board. After :w32:, White has a huge wall, and threatens to make a very large territory on the lower edge, so you should try to play towards that area (or better, you should have noticed that after :w20: ). Other example : :b53: doesn't make many points. There are much larger areas on the board.

I think move :b31: was total waste and I could have played better. Actually this sequence helped white build some influence with future chances of large moyo. I usually do really bad in joseki/fuseki stage. I still don't understand why :b53: is a small move? Doesn't that secure territory more than 2 points?

jlt wrote:
(I can see other bad moves on both sides but won't comment everything.)

Any suggestions about middle game play?

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #12 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:03 am 
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EdLee wrote:
:b7: Curious about the engine's opinion.

:b9: Strange.


:b7: do LZ agree with my move? I am on a mobile device, have app with LZ+FB elf weights but haven't checked it as I am more interested in human moves than that of AI's for now.

:b9: why it is strange? Is it because other bigger moves are available? Should I have played on another star point or an approach move in white corner?

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #13 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:14 am 
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EdLee wrote:
:b13: This one depends on your plan...

:b15: ...if this was your plan for :b13:, then it's a bad plan ( very slow ).
If you didn't have a plan for :b13:, which is very likely, then it makes sense you ended up with a bad combination of ( :b13: + :b15: = too slow ).

:b17: Maybe you played this move because in the past, you had some bad experience with your opponents jumping into your 3-3 and destroyed your corner ?
If so, that's misplaced thinking here. Just connect solidly at Q3.
Study why Q3 is better than your :b17: .


:b13: + :b17: was part of the plan, now I realise that :b15: was just a stupid (and unnecessary) response to :w14: which could have been omitted completely. Even this plan was slow.

You are partially right about san-san invasion but I planned this because my opponent was also playing slow, or I might be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #14 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:24 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Can you see why ( :b15:, :b21:, :b23: ) are very slow and small?


Yes, what alternate moves you suggest in tune with chinese fuseki?

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #15 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:40 am 
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Instead of :b7: LZ suggest early san-san invasion at C3 which I think is really a bad move for beginner like me. It might work for AZ or LZ but to a new learner of the game it might not be a 'necessary' move.

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #16 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:31 am 
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xoxox wrote:
I still don't understand why :b53: is a small move? Doesn't that secure territory more than 2 points?
With :b53: you are slightly enlarging an already fully-alive group of your own by maybe ~ 5 points. It does not put any pressure on white, i.e. white has full freedom to continue with whatever he wants (that means, your move was "gote").

Now look at the lower and lower-left area of the board: There's no single b stone, yet. If w gets 1-2 another free moves there, the whole area is turned into a giant white moyo. You might still invade there, but this will be mostly a disadvantageous fight.

Thus, seems a good moment for playing a kakari at e.g. c6 - do you think this would be smaller or bigger than the around 5 points of your :b53:?

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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #17 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:03 am 
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xoxox wrote:
I still don't understand why :b53: is a small move? Doesn't that secure territory more than 2 points?


(schawipp already answered while I was typing the following paragraph): :b53: is small because your group is already quite safe, White needs several moves before threatening anything. You are just adding about 6 points to an already strong group, and you are becoming overconcentrated (too many black stones in a small area).

A guiding principle is that corners are big, so most of the time, approaching a corner (C6, F3) or making a corner enclosure (C14, F17) is a big play. Another possibility is D10 since it interacts loosely with D16 and prevents White from playing there. Or perhaps play around H3 and try to live (this is basically what you did around move 183 but you died because there were already too many white stones; you would have had better chances of success by invading earlier).

Some of these moves are probably not optimal at all, but I am pretty confident that they are better than your move :b53:

xoxox wrote:
Any suggestions about middle game play?


After :b57: White could have captured a stone (e.g. N18, O17, L18).

:b59: gives you bad shape because :w60: crossed your keima N14-O16.

:b83: is bad because you lost sente. You already have a bamboo joint (L8, L9, N8, N9) so White cannot cut through it.

:b87: is a small move because it is gote (White doesn't really need to answer and could take a big point elsewhere).

Move 101: if your idea is to kill the D15 stone or at least to save your C15 stone, then C14 gives you a better shape (whereas the atari at D14 leaves a cutting point at C14).

Move 137 is often bad shape because it invites your opponent to cut your keima.

Move 167: what are you afraid of?


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 Post subject: Re: Game review request (IGS 17K)
Post #18 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:46 am 
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jlt wrote:
:b59: gives you bad shape because :w60: crossed your keima N14-O16.

Yes I know about keima cut, have read about it before. Problem is, it is more difficult to apply these ideas in practical games. Like Go most of these ideas are also abstract, so some of them are understood better only by playing a lot and not by only studying. I am fairly new to game and playing it seriously for about a month or two only so reading and intuition might improve with time.

Thanks all for suggestions and analysis. One more thing: board embedded here is not very mobile device friendly.

Thanks again.

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Post #19 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Hi xoxox,
Quote:
Quote:
Can you see why ( :b15:, :b21:, :b23: ) are very slow and small?
Yes, what alternate moves you suggest in tune with [the usual suspects] fuseki?
Quite often in kyu reviews, a move is pointed out as not good ( say, too slow, too small, wrong shape, etc. ), and immediately the person wants to know what are better candidates. This is strictly from my observation ( you may have different experiences ): they never pay attention to why the original move was not good to begin with -- they're much more interested in opening ideas. As a result, they would continue to play the bad moves for a long time -- and not only in the opening, but in every phrase of the game, because they tend to ignore the importance of the fundamentals, the very reasons the original move wasn't good.

In another recent thread, this quote from Mr. Cho chikun came up ( some paraphrasing for my purposes here ):

"there are still those who teach beginners without teaching life and death problems or capture races. They only teach [ the opening ], [ play by intuition ], etc. This is totally wrong. It would be the same as teaching multiplication and division to children who have not even learned addition and subtraction."

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Post #20 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Quote:
board embedded here is not very mobile device friendly.
I've been using the ancient and tiny iphone(4 & 5) screens for this forum ( including this and previous posts, editing forum diagrams, browsing embedded SGF's like yours ) for some years now. :blackeye:

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